4 ms·

> 24% of people killed by police are black > African Americans, however, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police despite being ju

> 24% of people killed by police are black > African Americans, however, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police despite being just 13 percent of the U.S. population. As The Post noted in a new analysis published last week, that means black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers. [0] [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/1...

jedmeyers 6y ago
> black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers. If we are going into this statistics: using your terminology, how much less likely that a “black American” will commit a crime that causes arrest (or a police interaction) than a “white American“?
- Avicebron 6y ago
  And another important point struck down because there just isn't a convenient answer.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
  "Police interactions" are largely up to the discretion of the police, which is why almost all proposals for police reform include ending "broken windows" policies. One example, with some more info: https://www.joincampaignzero.org/brokenwindows https://www.joincampaignzero.org/brokenwindows
  - jedmeyers 6y ago
    Police interactions, maybe. But actual crimes committed should be a relatively objective metric. Can we discuss that one or it’s not allowed for some reason?
jcims 6y ago
> black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers. Black Americans are also 4 times as likely (per capita) to kill a police officer. https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2018/topic-pages/officers-feloniously-killed https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2018/topic-pages/officers-feloniou... (bottom of page) The reality of course is that the relationship between law enforcement and the black community is dogshit. There are terrible people on both sides that escalate nonsense into homicide, and this puts both groups on high alert in tense encounters. Unfortunately I feel that one side has to move first to fix the situation and to me that's obviously law enforcement. But even if they started, in earnest, today it's going to take decades to equalize and sins of the past will eternally haunt us all.
- foldr 6y ago
  It's hard to reconcile that theory with the facts of most of the cases that make the news. For example, the police officers who killed George Floyd clearly had no reason to fear for their lives. Or what about all the black folks shot in bed in no-knock raids? The first step everyone needs to take to resolve this problem is to stop blaming the victims of police violence.
  - jcims 6y ago
    >It's hard to reconcile that theory with the facts of most of the cases that make the news. Why would you expect a uniform sampling of cases from the news? Police killed 1000 people last year. Almost 3 per day. How many of those did you hear about? Why would you hear about some vs. the others? > The first step everyone needs to take to resolve this problem is to stop blaming the victims of police violence. Who are you addressing this to? Me? I didn't blame George Floyd in the least. That was straight up murder.
    - foldr 6y ago
      I wouldn't, but I think it's important to be sensitive to what people are actually protesting about. It's mostly these outrageous cases and (in the case of black folks) lived experience that make people angry. People cite statistics to illustrate the fact that these cases are part of a bigger problem of systematic racism. Some people expend a lot of effort trying to explain the statistics away, but that largely misses the point.
at-fates-hands 6y ago
The problem with any of these statistics is they lack context. How many of those incidents were justified? How many times did the suspect point a gun at the police? How many times did a suspect engage the police and attempt to assault the officer or grab his gun? Without context, its easy to sit her and say that black americans are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by cops than whites and just assume that NONE of those incidents were justified or the cops had to use lethal force as a last resort. Which is counter to two things. All of the data in the UCR (Uniform Crime Report) would indicate murders align more along racial lines. Look at the data from 2018: Number of blacks killed by other black: 2,600 Number of blacks killed by whites: 234 Likewise you see the same pattern with whites: Number of whites killed by other whites: 2,677 Number of whites killed by blacks: 514 Likewise, if you look at the raw numbers by race of people shot by police, you get similar numbers: 2017 Whites: 457 Blacks: 223 2018 Whites: 399 Blacks: 209 2019 Whites: 370 Blacks: 235 2020 Whites: 172 Blacks: 88 Again, what do these statistics really tell us? You can't really dig any deeper because we have no context on what lead up to these, where they happened (urban vs. suburban) or what was the actual situation that lead to someone being shot by the police? Also, just purely from a numbers perspective, you can say that since there are far more white cops than black cops, then yes, it would make sense that there is a higher percentage of white cops that are shooting and killing black people. Again, without context, and proper reporting (which police departments and the FBI don't track) its hard to tell what those statistics are actually telling us. Understand, I'm not saying there isn't a problem with police brutality as there very much so. The MPD has had a long history similar to that of the LAPD. It took 25+ years to get from the LA riots in 1992 to Minneapolis in 2020 and to finally realize they have major problems with how they're policing their minority communities.
- mwfunk 6y ago
  Don't those numbers need to be normalized to take into account the size of the populations? You posted absolute raw numbers for blacks and whites, without noting that depending on how the categories are defined, the white population of the US is 4-6x greater than the black population of the US. 4x is the absolute minimum, so if you were to weight them proportionately what you posted would show a very different story. If the most conservative numbers are used (only 4x as many whites as blacks in the US), then it turns into this: 2017 Whites: 457 Blacks: 223->892 2018 Whites: 399 Blacks: 209->836 2019 Whites: 370 Blacks: 235->940 2020 Whites: 172 Blacks: 88->352 But practically speaking, without splitting hairs too much it's a heck of a lot closer to 5-6x than 4x. EDIT: formatting
ralusek 6y ago
Correct, but then the subsequent question, as the other user pointed out, is WHY? The default position to fill in the gap seems to be that "racist discretion on the part of the police is responsible," but is that actually a reasonable and defensible assumption? Note that I pointed out that 96% of people killed by police are male, but men only make up 50% of the population. Do you assume that the difference between their per-capita representation is best explained by anti-male sexism? Aren't there a series of other relevant factors you could use to explain the disparity? I suggest you reflect on it honestly.

jedmeyers 6y ago

> black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers. If we are going into this statistics: using your terminology, how much less likely that a “black American” will commit a crime that causes arrest (or a police interaction) than a “white American“?

Avicebron 6y ago
And another important point struck down because there just isn't a convenient answer.
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
"Police interactions" are largely up to the discretion of the police, which is why almost all proposals for police reform include ending "broken windows" policies. One example, with some more info: https://www.joincampaignzero.org/brokenwindows https://www.joincampaignzero.org/brokenwindows
- jedmeyers 6y ago
  Police interactions, maybe. But actual crimes committed should be a relatively objective metric. Can we discuss that one or it’s not allowed for some reason?

jcims 6y ago

> black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers. Black Americans are also 4 times as likely (per capita) to kill a police officer. https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2018/topic-pages/officers-feloniously-killed https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2018/topic-pages/officers-feloniou... (bottom of page) The reality of course is that the relationship between law enforcement and the black community is dogshit. There are terrible people on both sides that escalate nonsense into homicide, and this puts both groups on high alert in tense encounters. Unfortunately I feel that one side has to move first to fix the situation and to me that's obviously law enforcement. But even if they started, in earnest, today it's going to take decades to equalize and sins of the past will eternally haunt us all.

foldr 6y ago
It's hard to reconcile that theory with the facts of most of the cases that make the news. For example, the police officers who killed George Floyd clearly had no reason to fear for their lives. Or what about all the black folks shot in bed in no-knock raids? The first step everyone needs to take to resolve this problem is to stop blaming the victims of police violence.
- jcims 6y ago
  >It's hard to reconcile that theory with the facts of most of the cases that make the news. Why would you expect a uniform sampling of cases from the news? Police killed 1000 people last year. Almost 3 per day. How many of those did you hear about? Why would you hear about some vs. the others? > The first step everyone needs to take to resolve this problem is to stop blaming the victims of police violence. Who are you addressing this to? Me? I didn't blame George Floyd in the least. That was straight up murder.
  - foldr 6y ago
    I wouldn't, but I think it's important to be sensitive to what people are actually protesting about. It's mostly these outrageous cases and (in the case of black folks) lived experience that make people angry. People cite statistics to illustrate the fact that these cases are part of a bigger problem of systematic racism. Some people expend a lot of effort trying to explain the statistics away, but that largely misses the point.

at-fates-hands 6y ago

The problem with any of these statistics is they lack context. How many of those incidents were justified? How many times did the suspect point a gun at the police? How many times did a suspect engage the police and attempt to assault the officer or grab his gun? Without context, its easy to sit her and say that black americans are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by cops than whites and just assume that NONE of those incidents were justified or the cops had to use lethal force as a last resort. Which is counter to two things. All of the data in the UCR (Uniform Crime Report) would indicate murders align more along racial lines. Look at the data from 2018: Number of blacks killed by other black: 2,600 Number of blacks killed by whites: 234 Likewise you see the same pattern with whites: Number of whites killed by other whites: 2,677 Number of whites killed by blacks: 514 Likewise, if you look at the raw numbers by race of people shot by police, you get similar numbers: 2017 Whites: 457 Blacks: 223 2018 Whites: 399 Blacks: 209 2019 Whites: 370 Blacks: 235 2020 Whites: 172 Blacks: 88 Again, what do these statistics really tell us? You can't really dig any deeper because we have no context on what lead up to these, where they happened (urban vs. suburban) or what was the actual situation that lead to someone being shot by the police? Also, just purely from a numbers perspective, you can say that since there are far more white cops than black cops, then yes, it would make sense that there is a higher percentage of white cops that are shooting and killing black people. Again, without context, and proper reporting (which police departments and the FBI don't track) its hard to tell what those statistics are actually telling us. Understand, I'm not saying there isn't a problem with police brutality as there very much so. The MPD has had a long history similar to that of the LAPD. It took 25+ years to get from the LA riots in 1992 to Minneapolis in 2020 and to finally realize they have major problems with how they're policing their minority communities.

mwfunk 6y ago
Don't those numbers need to be normalized to take into account the size of the populations? You posted absolute raw numbers for blacks and whites, without noting that depending on how the categories are defined, the white population of the US is 4-6x greater than the black population of the US. 4x is the absolute minimum, so if you were to weight them proportionately what you posted would show a very different story. If the most conservative numbers are used (only 4x as many whites as blacks in the US), then it turns into this: 2017 Whites: 457 Blacks: 223->892 2018 Whites: 399 Blacks: 209->836 2019 Whites: 370 Blacks: 235->940 2020 Whites: 172 Blacks: 88->352 But practically speaking, without splitting hairs too much it's a heck of a lot closer to 5-6x than 4x. EDIT: formatting

ralusek 6y ago

Correct, but then the subsequent question, as the other user pointed out, is WHY? The default position to fill in the gap seems to be that "racist discretion on the part of the police is responsible," but is that actually a reasonable and defensible assumption? Note that I pointed out that 96% of people killed by police are male, but men only make up 50% of the population. Do you assume that the difference between their per-capita representation is best explained by anti-male sexism? Aren't there a series of other relevant factors you could use to explain the disparity? I suggest you reflect on it honestly.