5 ms·

Right, the healthy discussions over r/politics is what they should encourage. /s

staycoolboy 6y ago
Yes, /r/politics is an echo chamber. But there is an enormous difference between that and T_D. I don't ever recall seeing posts on /r/politics being stickied that called for violence, whereas that happened routinely on T_D. Your comment is not sarcastic, it is misleading, misiniformed and ultimately destructive.
- WorkingDead 6y ago
  BS. The only difference between the two discussion groups is that TD dropped all the pretense. I have seen the same kinds of things that are loosely defined as 'calls to violence' in both places.
  - vvG94KbDUtRa 6y ago
    I don't agree with you, but even if I did, the "pretense" being referred to is "we don't actually want violence inflicted on the other party". I'd say that's a pretty important pretense to keep
  - jacobolus 6y ago
    The “only difference” between a group of fascist white supremacists who fantasize about violently exterminating their perceived enemies and a bunch of ordinary people in a community organized around discussing newspaper/news magazine articles who are scared about the growing threat of fascist white supremacists and want them voted out of office and removed from positions of power is that the former have “dropped the pretense”? I guess that’s one way of looking at it...
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - throwmehaweh 6y ago
      > group of fascist white supremacists who fantasize about violently exterminating their perceived enemies Ummm, what? so people that support the President are all fascist white supremacists? Is that really where we're at in this country? What about the sizable number of blacks/latinos/and asians that support him, are they white supremacists too? "white supremacist" and "racist", two terms that have been watered down so much that they've effectively lost all meaning.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - jacobolus 6y ago
        No, that reddit community is not representative of all people who nominally support Donald Trump (say, those who voted for him in 2016). However, that reddit community in particular has a substantial number of fascists and white supremacists among its members, and they are welcomed to bring their disturbing violent messages there. (They are also encouraged by the numerous statements by Trump himself – their “god emperor” – and other allied officials in support of overtly fascist and white supremacist viewpoints.) What would you consider to be fair definitions of “fascism” or “white supremacism” or “racism”? Does your definition include e.g. neo-Nazis marching chanting “Jews will not replace us”?
      - ohgodplsno 6y ago
        green user, only posts are in support of T_D, pretends it wasn't a hate filled shithole... Alright, I'll bite. t_d was a vile, hatred spewing, white nationalist, violence prone subreddit and its death made the world better. Let's link a few examples, not for you, but for the few people that might still doubt it. (NSFW links coming up, by the way.) Their mods regularly left up posts that advocated for violence against leftists [1], calling for civil war in response to impeachement [2], calling for the murder of those who disagree with them [3], general gay and islamic hatred [4], kept a discord with doxxes of leftist in their sidebar [5], calling for political opponent's murder [6], rounding up muslims into concentration camps [7], extermination of migrants [8], and many, many, many others [9][10][11] [1] http://archive.today/slkGP http://archive.today/slkGP [2] http://archive.today/DrQTU http://archive.today/DrQTU [3] http://archive.today/TbEpC http://archive.today/TbEpC [4] https://ld.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/f9owok/i_present_to_you_the_antichrist/ https://ld.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/f9owok/i_present... [5] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanhatesthis/trump-supporters-have-built-a-document-with-the-addresses#.jmvr3kEMK https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanhatesthis/trump-sup... [6] http://archive.today/0uCjr http://archive.today/0uCjr [7] http://archive.today/DwlAc http://archive.today/DwlAc [8] http://archive.today/oOqOR http://archive.today/oOqOR [9] https://archive.today/c76rt https://archive.today/c76rt [10] http://archive.fo/lGoMJ http://archive.fo/lGoMJ [11] http://archive.is/WEwv5 http://archive.is/WEwv5
  - nkozyra 6y ago
    "Dropped the pretense" is an inference you're making into the motivations of the posters. Indeed, the difference between making a direct call to violence and an inferred one are very different things. The problems with TD stemmed far beyond inciting or glorifying violence. As mentioned, the biggest problem with /r/politics is it's an absolute echo chamber. Not even in the same realm.
  - hfourm 6y ago
    People on the donald openly celebrated violence in top upvoted posts. Tons of open racism. Politics has turned into a bit of an echo chamber compared to 10 years ago, but it is in no way the same as T_D. That "dropping pretense" you describe carries a LOT more weight than you are giving it, in who it attracts, and the behaviors it promotes.
    - purephase 6y ago
      It's just a thinly veiled allusion to "dog whistling" which all of these supposed free speech zealots like to throw around whenever they feel that their safe space is being questioned. I'm no fan of r/politics, but to actually believe that they're basically the same as TD is just wild.
    - belorn 6y ago
      I would very much like to see a study on that. Because of the reddit quarantine I can't use a subreddit analysis tool to compare the subs. The only conclusion I can see is that both politics and the donald is likely to share the same word as the most commonly used: Trump. I would in particular be interesting to know if there is a significant difference in offensive words used in either sub.
      - lemmonii 6y ago
        T_D moved offsite to escape censorship from reddit, i will not post the url here but it is easily findable
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    Free speech isn't hard to understand as a concept. If someone says something you disagree with, you debate them. Echo chambers radicalize us all. No one is immune to the effects of groupthink.
    - throwanem 6y ago
      So, how do you feel about the fire-in-a-crowded-theater exception?
      - mst 6y ago
        Not sure what relevance an "exception" a judge made up to justify censoring protest against WW2 japanese internment camps has to this conversation.
        dredmorbius 6y ago
        Schenck was WWI (1919) and concerned anti-draft literature distribution. You've got the wrong case. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States
        mst 6y ago
        Damnit. Thank you. Right spirit, completely wrong details. Story of my debugging life :D
      - defen 6y ago
        You're allowed to shout that there's a fire in a crowded theater if there's actually a fire. No one has ever argued that there is an unlimited right to say whatever you want whenever you want (libel and slander laws exist and don't seem to be controversial). If you falsely shout that there's a fire and cause a stampede and people are injured and it can be proven that you did it with malicious intent, you will be prosecuted or sued, but this isn't fundamentally different than libel or slander laws. Finally, you should know that the "fire in a crowded theater" phrase came from a unanimous Supreme Court decision that endorsed censorship and suppression of speech that criticized conscription during World War 1.
_emacsomancer_ 6y ago
r/politics is where I always go to feel bad about myself and the rest of the world

Yes, /r/politics is an echo chamber. But there is an enormous difference between that and T_D. I don't ever recall seeing posts on /r/politics being stickied that called for violence, whereas that happened routinely on T_D. Your comment is not sarcastic, it is misleading, misiniformed and ultimately destructive.

WorkingDead 6y ago
BS. The only difference between the two discussion groups is that TD dropped all the pretense. I have seen the same kinds of things that are loosely defined as 'calls to violence' in both places.
- vvG94KbDUtRa 6y ago
  I don't agree with you, but even if I did, the "pretense" being referred to is "we don't actually want violence inflicted on the other party". I'd say that's a pretty important pretense to keep
- jacobolus 6y ago
  The “only difference” between a group of fascist white supremacists who fantasize about violently exterminating their perceived enemies and a bunch of ordinary people in a community organized around discussing newspaper/news magazine articles who are scared about the growing threat of fascist white supremacists and want them voted out of office and removed from positions of power is that the former have “dropped the pretense”? I guess that’s one way of looking at it...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwmehaweh 6y ago
    > group of fascist white supremacists who fantasize about violently exterminating their perceived enemies Ummm, what? so people that support the President are all fascist white supremacists? Is that really where we're at in this country? What about the sizable number of blacks/latinos/and asians that support him, are they white supremacists too? "white supremacist" and "racist", two terms that have been watered down so much that they've effectively lost all meaning.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - jacobolus 6y ago
      No, that reddit community is not representative of all people who nominally support Donald Trump (say, those who voted for him in 2016). However, that reddit community in particular has a substantial number of fascists and white supremacists among its members, and they are welcomed to bring their disturbing violent messages there. (They are also encouraged by the numerous statements by Trump himself – their “god emperor” – and other allied officials in support of overtly fascist and white supremacist viewpoints.) What would you consider to be fair definitions of “fascism” or “white supremacism” or “racism”? Does your definition include e.g. neo-Nazis marching chanting “Jews will not replace us”?
    - ohgodplsno 6y ago
      green user, only posts are in support of T_D, pretends it wasn't a hate filled shithole... Alright, I'll bite. t_d was a vile, hatred spewing, white nationalist, violence prone subreddit and its death made the world better. Let's link a few examples, not for you, but for the few people that might still doubt it. (NSFW links coming up, by the way.) Their mods regularly left up posts that advocated for violence against leftists [1], calling for civil war in response to impeachement [2], calling for the murder of those who disagree with them [3], general gay and islamic hatred [4], kept a discord with doxxes of leftist in their sidebar [5], calling for political opponent's murder [6], rounding up muslims into concentration camps [7], extermination of migrants [8], and many, many, many others [9][10][11] [1] http://archive.today/slkGP http://archive.today/slkGP [2] http://archive.today/DrQTU http://archive.today/DrQTU [3] http://archive.today/TbEpC http://archive.today/TbEpC [4] https://ld.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/f9owok/i_present_to_you_the_antichrist/ https://ld.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/f9owok/i_present... [5] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanhatesthis/trump-supporters-have-built-a-document-with-the-addresses#.jmvr3kEMK https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanhatesthis/trump-sup... [6] http://archive.today/0uCjr http://archive.today/0uCjr [7] http://archive.today/DwlAc http://archive.today/DwlAc [8] http://archive.today/oOqOR http://archive.today/oOqOR [9] https://archive.today/c76rt https://archive.today/c76rt [10] http://archive.fo/lGoMJ http://archive.fo/lGoMJ [11] http://archive.is/WEwv5 http://archive.is/WEwv5
- nkozyra 6y ago
  "Dropped the pretense" is an inference you're making into the motivations of the posters. Indeed, the difference between making a direct call to violence and an inferred one are very different things. The problems with TD stemmed far beyond inciting or glorifying violence. As mentioned, the biggest problem with /r/politics is it's an absolute echo chamber. Not even in the same realm.
- hfourm 6y ago
  People on the donald openly celebrated violence in top upvoted posts. Tons of open racism. Politics has turned into a bit of an echo chamber compared to 10 years ago, but it is in no way the same as T_D. That "dropping pretense" you describe carries a LOT more weight than you are giving it, in who it attracts, and the behaviors it promotes.
  - purephase 6y ago
    It's just a thinly veiled allusion to "dog whistling" which all of these supposed free speech zealots like to throw around whenever they feel that their safe space is being questioned. I'm no fan of r/politics, but to actually believe that they're basically the same as TD is just wild.
  - belorn 6y ago
    I would very much like to see a study on that. Because of the reddit quarantine I can't use a subreddit analysis tool to compare the subs. The only conclusion I can see is that both politics and the donald is likely to share the same word as the most commonly used: Trump. I would in particular be interesting to know if there is a significant difference in offensive words used in either sub.
    - lemmonii 6y ago
      T_D moved offsite to escape censorship from reddit, i will not post the url here but it is easily findable
- chrisco255 6y ago
  Free speech isn't hard to understand as a concept. If someone says something you disagree with, you debate them. Echo chambers radicalize us all. No one is immune to the effects of groupthink.
  - throwanem 6y ago
    So, how do you feel about the fire-in-a-crowded-theater exception?
    - mst 6y ago
      Not sure what relevance an "exception" a judge made up to justify censoring protest against WW2 japanese internment camps has to this conversation.
      - dredmorbius 6y ago
        Schenck was WWI (1919) and concerned anti-draft literature distribution. You've got the wrong case. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States
        mst 6y ago
        Damnit. Thank you. Right spirit, completely wrong details. Story of my debugging life :D
    - defen 6y ago
      You're allowed to shout that there's a fire in a crowded theater if there's actually a fire. No one has ever argued that there is an unlimited right to say whatever you want whenever you want (libel and slander laws exist and don't seem to be controversial). If you falsely shout that there's a fire and cause a stampede and people are injured and it can be proven that you did it with malicious intent, you will be prosecuted or sued, but this isn't fundamentally different than libel or slander laws. Finally, you should know that the "fire in a crowded theater" phrase came from a unanimous Supreme Court decision that endorsed censorship and suppression of speech that criticized conscription during World War 1.

_emacsomancer_ 6y ago

r/politics is where I always go to feel bad about myself and the rest of the world