7 ms·

Reddit got too mainstream for its own good. The company desperately wants to become the new social media (think Facebook or Twitter), but many users are standin

Reddit got too mainstream for its own good. The company desperately wants to become the new social media (think Facebook or Twitter), but many users are standing in the way, making the change from a discussion website to a social media website slow. What made me and many others use Reddit in the first place is that it didn't really matter who you are and what's your political and religious background, the only thing that mattered is what you are saying in that particular thread in a particular subreddit. Now politics and controversies can be seen in all subreddits, people are using the platform just to post selfies of themselves, and with the addition of the "profile" feature, there is an insentive to make a name for yourself there. So yeah, while a lot of people, including me, hate the changes, it is obviously better for the business, as it attracts a wider range of users. But still, I'm starting to use Reddit less and less, and relying on RSS and HN to get my daily dose of tech news and discussions.

alecb 6y ago
The site became mainstream while still being extremely vulnerable to manipulation by a very small pool of individuals. They've done next to nothing to address how effective and rampant brigading is (among other tactics).
- asdff 6y ago
  It really doesn't take much to brigade. Write some scripts to get 100 accounts upvoting your posts while they are on new, and chances are after that initial hump you've surmounted with your bots it will catch exponential viewership over the course of the day and make it to the front page.
  - at-fates-hands 6y ago
    You see this happening constantly on Twitter. You see unverified accounts with one or two followers having tweets that are trending within a few minutes with tens of thousands of "likes" and thousands of "retweets" and Twitter doesn't even blink an eye, but its so blatantly obvious what's happening.
  - canada_dry 6y ago
    > It really doesn't take much to brigade What's frightening is that groups like politicians, unions, and extreme right-wing groups could very easily use this technique to quickly and pretty effectively promote or quell discussion. I just recently saw an example of where this might have happened. Very suddenly a comment in a discussion I was following - what initially was a popular up-voted opinion (i.e discussing police brutality) - got down-voted into oblivion (from +5 to -25) in less than 5 minutes. The comment was deleted soon after - probably to protect their score. This kind of quick/easy manipulation by bots can't be easy to detect/deal with yet I fear it may become mainstream.
    - thedrbrian 6y ago
      How can it be that the right wing are simultaneously back woods idiots and also capable of out teching the coastal elite?
    - blockmarker 6y ago
      Extreme right-wing(and center-right) are countered by the extreme left moderators and administrators. I assure you, if left-wing posts started being vote brigaded, Reddit would ban all those involved. They can already detect and ban vote brigading, they just don't care to stop it.
na85 6y ago
I think the real problem facing the reddit corporate folks is that people on that site are slowly but inexorably coming around to the realization (if they aren't there already) that what makes a site good from the user's standpoint is pretty much antithetical to making it profitable. Unfortunately for reddit, the site owes its existence to the users who built communities there, and when heavy-handed changes are introduced in classic reddit fashion (invariably user-hostile changes with little to no advance warning nor recourse), the users rightfully feel their senses of ownership being offended.
- ethbro 6y ago
  LiveJournal / Blogger (1999): Words are more important than styling. I'm going to be a writer someday. LinkedIn (2002): You know who has money? People with jobs. Or people looking to give people jobs. MySpace (2003): Webpages for people who don't webpage or understand contrast. Also my favorite song auto-playing ON THE INTERNET. The Facebook (2004): Realization that most people suck at graphic design. You'll be shocked to learn what your friends and family believe! Ooh, there's a lot of money in gaming -> targeted advertising -> web tracking. Reddit (2005): Remember why people used BBSs? Reddit does! Condé Nast doesn't. YCombinator does! Wait, volunteer admins have their own thoughts? Twitter (2006): Here's a single speech / thought bubble above my head + how I feel about others' bubbles. Tumblr (2007): I hate apps, but love pictures. Yahoo: We're still cool! WhatsApp (2009): Remember when you could do everything from the Yahoo! homepage? WhatsApp does! Facebook: Hungry... CHOMP. Instagram (2010): Pictures are more important than words. Photos for people who don't Lightroom. I'm going to be a photographer / model someday. Facebook: ... don't mention us here. No wait, do. No wait, don't. Snapchat (2011): The worst thing about social media is people being able to read my old posts. Ooh, there's money in gamifying Facebook to boost engagement metrics. Google+ (2011): SOMEONE SAID I CAN HAVE MY OWN SOCIAL MEDIA ON THE INTERNET. Internet: Okay, boomer. Telegram (2013): Security for people who don't attend PGP signing parties. Mastodon / Fediverse (2016): Give me freedom or give me de... hold on, let me update my settings, something br--. Internet: Okay, rms. TikTok (2016): Memes for people who don't Photoshop. China: {Cambrian explosion}. As long as the name is two, repeated consonants. And the logo is a racoon.
- Avicebron 6y ago
disposekinetics 6y ago
Do you know of any federated/distributed alternatives to reddit? Although, maybe the argument is we don't actually need a social media platform at all just RSS.
- kube-system 6y ago
  Most of the sites that attempt to be an alternative to reddit are filled with groups that reddit banned.
  - disposekinetics 6y ago
    That's the problem I run into too.
    - cmdshiftf4 6y ago
      Wait, you're looking for a federated alternative to Reddit, but people exercising free speech on other platforms is a problem for you? Why not just stay with Reddit?
      - disposekinetics 6y ago
        A federated service would be harder to monetize. Which makes me think it would stay usable longer.
      - tomjen3 6y ago
        Just because I think it was wrong to ban jailbait doesn't mean I want to browse it.
- MarcellusDrum 6y ago
  It took me some time to have my RSS feed setup the way I want it, but it is such a fresh breath of air. A thing I noticed is that my opinion about a certain subject gets influenced a lot by the top comments, whether here or on Reddit. I sometimes even read the comments before reading the article. Having to read an article and giving myself enough time to form my own opinion without directly checking what the comments "want" me to believe was refreshing. But still, having comments is important to see something from a different angle, which is why I still browse HN and reddit.
izzydata 6y ago
I don't like reddit because discussion is always influenced by what needs to be said in order to be more popular. If reddit got rid of usernames and karma then I think it would be ideal.
- metalchianti 6y ago
  Like an anonymous imageboard with upvotes?
  - cmdshiftf4 6y ago
    Why are karma / votes even necessary? Surely the popularity of content could be purely determined by the actual amount of clicks a given article/topic is given in a certain amount of time?
    - cryptoz 6y ago
      What's the difference between a click and an upvote then? It can still be gamed as easily (maybe even easier). Also, it has a major problem: if users know that popularity is based on clicks, then they can't click on anything they might disagree with (to simply learn more about it) without amplifying the signal as well. The incentives of user behavior are changed in to a self-censorship of what the user allows themselves to read, likely enforcing bubbles even more.
- catalogia 6y ago
  'Karma seeking behavior' is a problem even on wholly uncontroversial subreddits. Shit like "my girlfriend baked me a cake with [subject of the subreddit on it]" is really uninteresting content after you've seen it for the thousandth time but gets upvoted pretty reliably. Reddit's system simply isn't an effective moderation system if you want to establish a thoughtful community because cheap pandering to the crowd is easier than finding or creating thoughtful content.
  - cmdshiftf4 6y ago
    >if you want to establish a thoughtful community Reddit does not want to establish a thoughtful community. Much like Facebook, Buzzfeed, etc. it relies on virtue/outrage to sell ads.
empath75 6y ago
Just like good people don't want to work with bad cops and leave the force, good people don't want to be forced to interact with racists and misogynists, and reddit has had a problem with both from day one.
newsbinator 6y ago
I have no idea what the skin color or gender or sexual preferences of other users on HN are and you don't know mine. That's how I prefer it. The other day I unsubscribed from a popular Javascript mailing list, after the writer switched from writing about Javascript to writing about how white people and black people should interact. Or rather I didn't unsubscribe right away: I emailed the writer politely and mentioned how I prefer posts to be about the thing that unites us: Javascript. Their response: "my platform, my voice", "all tech is political", "this mailing list isn't for you", and later on Twitter: people who unsubscribed are racist and should "eat shit". I don't believe I'm racist. It's just that I signed up for Javascript tips and the writer switched to politics (in this case, the politics of a country and culture I don't live in). I'm no more interested in their political views than they are in mine. On the internet, nobody needs to know I'm a dog.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  In such a polarized emotionally charged environment, some people are unable to emotionally segregate world news from their personal and professional lives. These people have become paralyzed and unable to function normally. They allow world events to bleed into every conversation, and feel obligated to support their side and ostracizing anyone that disagrees - further isolating them in their bubble. I think that social media has increased society's emotional surface area to world events. We no longer isolate 30-60 minutes per day to watch balanced reports on the 6 o'clock news - now it's all the time, hyperbolic, and often deceptive. Our emotions are being weaponized - and November is going to be a real wake-up call where we will see the magnitude of disruptive power that these polarized social media messages can wield.
  - newsbinator 6y ago
    Quite right! In this case, the mailing list writer has built a dichotomy into all their communications: either you say black lives matter or you say "all lives matter" and therefore you are his enemy. Whereas the third option, "I'm just here for Javascript tips", wasn't even under consideration. So unless you engage with and echo their politics, you fall into the enemy camp by default.

alecb 6y ago

The site became mainstream while still being extremely vulnerable to manipulation by a very small pool of individuals. They've done next to nothing to address how effective and rampant brigading is (among other tactics).

asdff 6y ago
It really doesn't take much to brigade. Write some scripts to get 100 accounts upvoting your posts while they are on new, and chances are after that initial hump you've surmounted with your bots it will catch exponential viewership over the course of the day and make it to the front page.
- at-fates-hands 6y ago
  You see this happening constantly on Twitter. You see unverified accounts with one or two followers having tweets that are trending within a few minutes with tens of thousands of "likes" and thousands of "retweets" and Twitter doesn't even blink an eye, but its so blatantly obvious what's happening.
- canada_dry 6y ago
  > It really doesn't take much to brigade What's frightening is that groups like politicians, unions, and extreme right-wing groups could very easily use this technique to quickly and pretty effectively promote or quell discussion. I just recently saw an example of where this might have happened. Very suddenly a comment in a discussion I was following - what initially was a popular up-voted opinion (i.e discussing police brutality) - got down-voted into oblivion (from +5 to -25) in less than 5 minutes. The comment was deleted soon after - probably to protect their score. This kind of quick/easy manipulation by bots can't be easy to detect/deal with yet I fear it may become mainstream.
  - thedrbrian 6y ago
    How can it be that the right wing are simultaneously back woods idiots and also capable of out teching the coastal elite?
  - blockmarker 6y ago
    Extreme right-wing(and center-right) are countered by the extreme left moderators and administrators. I assure you, if left-wing posts started being vote brigaded, Reddit would ban all those involved. They can already detect and ban vote brigading, they just don't care to stop it.

na85 6y ago

I think the real problem facing the reddit corporate folks is that people on that site are slowly but inexorably coming around to the realization (if they aren't there already) that what makes a site good from the user's standpoint is pretty much antithetical to making it profitable. Unfortunately for reddit, the site owes its existence to the users who built communities there, and when heavy-handed changes are introduced in classic reddit fashion (invariably user-hostile changes with little to no advance warning nor recourse), the users rightfully feel their senses of ownership being offended.

ethbro 6y ago
LiveJournal / Blogger (1999): Words are more important than styling. I'm going to be a writer someday. LinkedIn (2002): You know who has money? People with jobs. Or people looking to give people jobs. MySpace (2003): Webpages for people who don't webpage or understand contrast. Also my favorite song auto-playing ON THE INTERNET. The Facebook (2004): Realization that most people suck at graphic design. You'll be shocked to learn what your friends and family believe! Ooh, there's a lot of money in gaming -> targeted advertising -> web tracking. Reddit (2005): Remember why people used BBSs? Reddit does! Condé Nast doesn't. YCombinator does! Wait, volunteer admins have their own thoughts? Twitter (2006): Here's a single speech / thought bubble above my head + how I feel about others' bubbles. Tumblr (2007): I hate apps, but love pictures. Yahoo: We're still cool! WhatsApp (2009): Remember when you could do everything from the Yahoo! homepage? WhatsApp does! Facebook: Hungry... CHOMP. Instagram (2010): Pictures are more important than words. Photos for people who don't Lightroom. I'm going to be a photographer / model someday. Facebook: ... don't mention us here. No wait, do. No wait, don't. Snapchat (2011): The worst thing about social media is people being able to read my old posts. Ooh, there's money in gamifying Facebook to boost engagement metrics. Google+ (2011): SOMEONE SAID I CAN HAVE MY OWN SOCIAL MEDIA ON THE INTERNET. Internet: Okay, boomer. Telegram (2013): Security for people who don't attend PGP signing parties. Mastodon / Fediverse (2016): Give me freedom or give me de... hold on, let me update my settings, something br--. Internet: Okay, rms. TikTok (2016): Memes for people who don't Photoshop. China: {Cambrian explosion}. As long as the name is two, repeated consonants. And the logo is a racoon.
Avicebron 6y ago

disposekinetics 6y ago

Do you know of any federated/distributed alternatives to reddit? Although, maybe the argument is we don't actually need a social media platform at all just RSS.

kube-system 6y ago
Most of the sites that attempt to be an alternative to reddit are filled with groups that reddit banned.
- disposekinetics 6y ago
  That's the problem I run into too.
  - cmdshiftf4 6y ago
    Wait, you're looking for a federated alternative to Reddit, but people exercising free speech on other platforms is a problem for you? Why not just stay with Reddit?
    - disposekinetics 6y ago
      A federated service would be harder to monetize. Which makes me think it would stay usable longer.
    - tomjen3 6y ago
      Just because I think it was wrong to ban jailbait doesn't mean I want to browse it.
MarcellusDrum 6y ago
It took me some time to have my RSS feed setup the way I want it, but it is such a fresh breath of air. A thing I noticed is that my opinion about a certain subject gets influenced a lot by the top comments, whether here or on Reddit. I sometimes even read the comments before reading the article. Having to read an article and giving myself enough time to form my own opinion without directly checking what the comments "want" me to believe was refreshing. But still, having comments is important to see something from a different angle, which is why I still browse HN and reddit.

izzydata 6y ago

I don't like reddit because discussion is always influenced by what needs to be said in order to be more popular. If reddit got rid of usernames and karma then I think it would be ideal.

metalchianti 6y ago
Like an anonymous imageboard with upvotes?
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago
  Why are karma / votes even necessary? Surely the popularity of content could be purely determined by the actual amount of clicks a given article/topic is given in a certain amount of time?
  - cryptoz 6y ago
    What's the difference between a click and an upvote then? It can still be gamed as easily (maybe even easier). Also, it has a major problem: if users know that popularity is based on clicks, then they can't click on anything they might disagree with (to simply learn more about it) without amplifying the signal as well. The incentives of user behavior are changed in to a self-censorship of what the user allows themselves to read, likely enforcing bubbles even more.
catalogia 6y ago
'Karma seeking behavior' is a problem even on wholly uncontroversial subreddits. Shit like "my girlfriend baked me a cake with [subject of the subreddit on it]" is really uninteresting content after you've seen it for the thousandth time but gets upvoted pretty reliably. Reddit's system simply isn't an effective moderation system if you want to establish a thoughtful community because cheap pandering to the crowd is easier than finding or creating thoughtful content.
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago
  >if you want to establish a thoughtful community Reddit does not want to establish a thoughtful community. Much like Facebook, Buzzfeed, etc. it relies on virtue/outrage to sell ads.

empath75 6y ago

Just like good people don't want to work with bad cops and leave the force, good people don't want to be forced to interact with racists and misogynists, and reddit has had a problem with both from day one.

newsbinator 6y ago

I have no idea what the skin color or gender or sexual preferences of other users on HN are and you don't know mine. That's how I prefer it. The other day I unsubscribed from a popular Javascript mailing list, after the writer switched from writing about Javascript to writing about how white people and black people should interact. Or rather I didn't unsubscribe right away: I emailed the writer politely and mentioned how I prefer posts to be about the thing that unites us: Javascript. Their response: "my platform, my voice", "all tech is political", "this mailing list isn't for you", and later on Twitter: people who unsubscribed are racist and should "eat shit". I don't believe I'm racist. It's just that I signed up for Javascript tips and the writer switched to politics (in this case, the politics of a country and culture I don't live in). I'm no more interested in their political views than they are in mine. On the internet, nobody needs to know I'm a dog.

koheripbal 6y ago
In such a polarized emotionally charged environment, some people are unable to emotionally segregate world news from their personal and professional lives. These people have become paralyzed and unable to function normally. They allow world events to bleed into every conversation, and feel obligated to support their side and ostracizing anyone that disagrees - further isolating them in their bubble. I think that social media has increased society's emotional surface area to world events. We no longer isolate 30-60 minutes per day to watch balanced reports on the 6 o'clock news - now it's all the time, hyperbolic, and often deceptive. Our emotions are being weaponized - and November is going to be a real wake-up call where we will see the magnitude of disruptive power that these polarized social media messages can wield.
- newsbinator 6y ago
  Quite right! In this case, the mailing list writer has built a dichotomy into all their communications: either you say black lives matter or you say "all lives matter" and therefore you are his enemy. Whereas the third option, "I'm just here for Javascript tips", wasn't even under consideration. So unless you engage with and echo their politics, you fall into the enemy camp by default.