4 ms·

They are "a joke" because you're comparing them to the U.S. If you compared them to Japan / Australia / Canada let alone to the developing world they are great.

They are "a joke" because you're comparing them to the U.S. If you compared them to Japan / Australia / Canada let alone to the developing world they are great. Immigration to the U.S never was and probably never will be easy and the education there isn't affordable. Also, the work culture would be quite a shock for an European. Some people will always try to gain a "better future" , I don't see big numbers leaving Germany though even if immigration was easy.

cmdshiftf4 6y ago
>If you compared them to Japan / Australia / Canada Can't speak for Japan, but the tech salaries in the big cities in Australia and Canada are far more competitive than those in Europe. The European tech industry is an absolute joke overall, and I say this as a European. It would take an utterly massive overhaul to correct without relying on outright Chinese-style protectionism, and as more companies move remote and snatch top talent in timezone-friendly countries, time is running out faster than ever. Good luck to European leaders in responding to the question of "Why would I, as a European in Europe, work for a European 'tech' company for terrible pay, when I can work for a US or Canadian tech company remotely for far better pay, on stronger teams, while retaining the same benefits of living in Europe?".
- jlangenauer 6y ago
  Be careful what you wish for: if we move towards a genuine globally-integrated tech market, where work can be done from anywhere, then companies might start asking the complementary question: "why would I, as a company, pay US-level (or even EU-level) salaries when I could hire someone from Russia or India or the Phillippines for much cheaper?" That particular knife cuts both ways.
  - cmdshiftf4 6y ago
    Arguably anyone that could outsource to very low cost centres has already tried to outsource there and many have learned (expensive) lessons from it. What seems to work: Geographically distributed but autonomous product-dev centers, with remote workers aligned within a certain timezone. What doesn't seem to work: Outsourcing pure dev work to timezones with no overlap. I don't believe the above will change even if things become more remote-friendly. Perhaps we'll see more dev centers pop up to service the needs / wants / cultural or language asynchronicity of a given region, but that would lend more toward expansion than cost reduction. This also resonates with the approaches being discussed that I've read and heard first hand from company leaders during COVID.
  - Nasrudith 6y ago
    That argument from consequences is common against remote working but isn't an actual arguement against the utility. If there is no benefit for paying a premium why not go with the commodity? Why go with an outmoded restriction to only hire blacksmiths in bounds of the south side of the original city limits? (Because they didn't want to smell the smoke in the posh north side while requiring the smiths live within the innermost set of city walls so they were available during a siege).
- joelbluminator 6y ago
  Not according to most surveys I saw https://qubit-labs.com/average-software-developer-salaries-salary-comparison-country/ https://qubit-labs.com/average-software-developer-salaries-s... . Australia is just like Germany or west europe in general. The big payers are U.S and Switzerland
  - ketzu 6y ago
    Not trying to discredit those numbers, but I wonder about the split per US state. Are they very close? Are there states that pay a lot more than others?
    - joelbluminator 6y ago
      I'm not American, but everything I read suggests that yes, of course; California pays much more than Missouri. I think the difference could be 2x - 3x. Then again cost of living is also 2x-3x more in SV.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
f6v 6y ago
It's funny that when Europe is mentioned, many people think "Germany". Ask Italians about their tech salaries, I've been told people are happy with 2.5k as a senior developer there...
- tomatotomato37 6y ago
  Well I mean it's the same in the US. No one is talking salaries in Iowa whenever tech jobs are mentioned
  - rootusrootus 6y ago
    The average software engineer in Iowa makes around 100K a year. That's pretty good, really, most people would consider it a lot of money. There is a reality distortion field around SV :)
    - thecleaner 6y ago
      100K in Iowa does seem like a great deal of money. One metric I would be interested in is what fraction of income would go to rent.

cmdshiftf4 6y ago

>If you compared them to Japan / Australia / Canada Can't speak for Japan, but the tech salaries in the big cities in Australia and Canada are far more competitive than those in Europe. The European tech industry is an absolute joke overall, and I say this as a European. It would take an utterly massive overhaul to correct without relying on outright Chinese-style protectionism, and as more companies move remote and snatch top talent in timezone-friendly countries, time is running out faster than ever. Good luck to European leaders in responding to the question of "Why would I, as a European in Europe, work for a European 'tech' company for terrible pay, when I can work for a US or Canadian tech company remotely for far better pay, on stronger teams, while retaining the same benefits of living in Europe?".

jlangenauer 6y ago
Be careful what you wish for: if we move towards a genuine globally-integrated tech market, where work can be done from anywhere, then companies might start asking the complementary question: "why would I, as a company, pay US-level (or even EU-level) salaries when I could hire someone from Russia or India or the Phillippines for much cheaper?" That particular knife cuts both ways.
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago
  Arguably anyone that could outsource to very low cost centres has already tried to outsource there and many have learned (expensive) lessons from it. What seems to work: Geographically distributed but autonomous product-dev centers, with remote workers aligned within a certain timezone. What doesn't seem to work: Outsourcing pure dev work to timezones with no overlap. I don't believe the above will change even if things become more remote-friendly. Perhaps we'll see more dev centers pop up to service the needs / wants / cultural or language asynchronicity of a given region, but that would lend more toward expansion than cost reduction. This also resonates with the approaches being discussed that I've read and heard first hand from company leaders during COVID.
- Nasrudith 6y ago
  That argument from consequences is common against remote working but isn't an actual arguement against the utility. If there is no benefit for paying a premium why not go with the commodity? Why go with an outmoded restriction to only hire blacksmiths in bounds of the south side of the original city limits? (Because they didn't want to smell the smoke in the posh north side while requiring the smiths live within the innermost set of city walls so they were available during a siege).
joelbluminator 6y ago
Not according to most surveys I saw https://qubit-labs.com/average-software-developer-salaries-salary-comparison-country/ https://qubit-labs.com/average-software-developer-salaries-s... . Australia is just like Germany or west europe in general. The big payers are U.S and Switzerland
- ketzu 6y ago
  Not trying to discredit those numbers, but I wonder about the split per US state. Are they very close? Are there states that pay a lot more than others?
  - joelbluminator 6y ago
    I'm not American, but everything I read suggests that yes, of course; California pays much more than Missouri. I think the difference could be 2x - 3x. Then again cost of living is also 2x-3x more in SV.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

f6v 6y ago

It's funny that when Europe is mentioned, many people think "Germany". Ask Italians about their tech salaries, I've been told people are happy with 2.5k as a senior developer there...

tomatotomato37 6y ago
Well I mean it's the same in the US. No one is talking salaries in Iowa whenever tech jobs are mentioned
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  The average software engineer in Iowa makes around 100K a year. That's pretty good, really, most people would consider it a lot of money. There is a reality distortion field around SV :)
  - thecleaner 6y ago
    100K in Iowa does seem like a great deal of money. One metric I would be interested in is what fraction of income would go to rent.