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Europe has to start from somewhere in a market currently dominated by the US and the Chinese... This project may look like a joke for people in the Silicon Vall

Europe has to start from somewhere in a market currently dominated by the US and the Chinese... This project may look like a joke for people in the Silicon Valley but everything we do in Europe looks like a joke for Americans. They laugh at the EU, at our spaceship program, at our industry, at our techs... Whatever we do they say we are old and finished. OK have good times laughing. Meanwhile we go on progressing. Discretly, maybe ridiculously, but we do.

Udik 6y ago
> Europe has to start from somewhere in a market currently dominated by the US and the Chinese... Yes, and it has to start by copying them. Copying to the letter, like following a recipe, humbly. That's how absolute beginners learn. Not by proclaiming absurd moonshots (by the way, it's "France and Germany", as usual, not the EU) and insisting that we'll build something different, new and innovative and blah blah. Just copy: it will force us to do the things we don't want to do, it will go against our values and culture. Which are probably what's holding us back now.
- Pedrit0 6y ago
  I think you did not get the purpose of the project and its context. 1. What should we copy ? We already have cloud companies in Europe. The issue is not about a lack of knowledge about cloud technologies. It is a matter of market share. Our companies are not big enough to provide adequate services to european states and sensitive industries. 2. The goal is not to create from scratch a European cloud giant that would be able to challenge Chinese and US powerhouses. It is just way not to rely on them as they cannot be trusted in any manner when it comes to data management and fair competition. As stated many times by Trump and Xi Jiping, EU is a competitor or even worse an enemy. In Europe we share this same bellicose analysis too now. And cloud is a battle among others, but an important one.
  - Udik 6y ago
    True, I don't think we need to copy the technology: that is probably easily available, you just need good engineers and money. The problem is exactly the second you mention: why is it that EU companies don't have the market share that US ones have? Why are our companies not big enough? What prevents entrepreneurs in Europe from creating tech giants such as the US ones? These are the things we need to copy- not the technology. > The goal is not to create from scratch a European cloud giant ... It is just way not to rely on them And how do you avoid relying on them? Are you going to force EU companies to choose a EU cloud provider, even when they would have preferred a US one? No, you need to create an offer that is competitive: and once it is, it will be competitive for everyone, not just our companies.
    - Pedrit0 6y ago
      > why is it that EU companies don't have the market share that US ones have? Why are our companies not big enough? They created the Cloud and we arrived late on this market, so we lag, therefore our companies are not big enough. This FR-GER initiative will secure market shares for european actors, in order they can grow enough to provide a sovereign platform for EU companies which need it. > Are you going to force EU companies to choose a EU cloud provider, even when they would have preferred a US one? All defense/sensitive/state owned companies, administration and maybe banking companies will not have the choice as they must comply to EU or national rules about data management. And I guess many european companies competiting with US and Chinese ones in highly competitive markets where bleeding edge techs and secrecy matter are looking for sovereign European solutions.
      - Udik 6y ago
        > They created the Cloud and we arrived late on this market Same for the web, for the mobile, and for many other sectors. We seem to be always late on the market, why is it so? > All defense/sensitive/state owned companies, administration and maybe banking companies will not have the choice Ok, so if I understand it correctly the EU is going to regulate out from some sectors non-EU companies and has to both come up with a legal excuse and to create some acceptable alternative before the regulation comes in force. And if the alternative is mediocre it won't be much of an issue because there will be no choice anyway. But the idea of creating an interoperable standard is good: it could allow a sane competition between companies to provide a basic standardised service. I hope it doesn't resolve in the next embarrassment. It won't solve our problem of constantly lagging in most consumer high tech sectors anyway.
joelbluminator 6y ago
How the U.S looked the last few years they are in no position to laugh at anyone. In fact most Americans I talk to in Europe seem quite humble.
- Pedrit0 6y ago
  Maybe those you can meet in Europe... But on Hacker News, Europe is (most of the time) a laughing stock for Americans.
  - joelbluminator 6y ago
    As I said, not the last few years... there are things U.S did great. Building a sustainable, democratic society isn't one of them.
    - Axsuul 6y ago
      America's diversity is its biggest challenge.
      - Pedrit0 6y ago
        And what about EU with its 27 nations and different languages. Not even talking about immigration. Diversity is a challenge for all of us.
        kazen44 6y ago
        not to mention how quickly this change has happened. America might have an issue with diversity, but compared inthe 20th century, europe as a continent has been through massive suffering. let's not forget 30 years ago, half of the continent was divided and 40 prior to that most of it was in ruins.
  - jevgeni 6y ago
    HN comments are just Reddit comments with a thin veneer of objectivity. So mostly just a group think of patting each other on the back, if your opinion conforms. Europe did a lot of things that seemed unsexy, but habe proven to be good in the long run. That’s why most of the debates in Europe on healthcare, for example, are “the premiums are a tad high”. Compared to the American civil war inducing train wreck that is their healthcare reform debate. There are tech powerhouses around major universities, like TU Berlin or ETH Zurich. The problem is that the VC market is nowhere near SV. Also, SV unicorns are all consumer and ad businesses. This is where a homogeneous huge market helps. It’s easier to have network effects when everybody speaks the same language.

Udik 6y ago

> Europe has to start from somewhere in a market currently dominated by the US and the Chinese... Yes, and it has to start by copying them. Copying to the letter, like following a recipe, humbly. That's how absolute beginners learn. Not by proclaiming absurd moonshots (by the way, it's "France and Germany", as usual, not the EU) and insisting that we'll build something different, new and innovative and blah blah. Just copy: it will force us to do the things we don't want to do, it will go against our values and culture. Which are probably what's holding us back now.

Pedrit0 6y ago
I think you did not get the purpose of the project and its context. 1. What should we copy ? We already have cloud companies in Europe. The issue is not about a lack of knowledge about cloud technologies. It is a matter of market share. Our companies are not big enough to provide adequate services to european states and sensitive industries. 2. The goal is not to create from scratch a European cloud giant that would be able to challenge Chinese and US powerhouses. It is just way not to rely on them as they cannot be trusted in any manner when it comes to data management and fair competition. As stated many times by Trump and Xi Jiping, EU is a competitor or even worse an enemy. In Europe we share this same bellicose analysis too now. And cloud is a battle among others, but an important one.
- Udik 6y ago
  True, I don't think we need to copy the technology: that is probably easily available, you just need good engineers and money. The problem is exactly the second you mention: why is it that EU companies don't have the market share that US ones have? Why are our companies not big enough? What prevents entrepreneurs in Europe from creating tech giants such as the US ones? These are the things we need to copy- not the technology. > The goal is not to create from scratch a European cloud giant ... It is just way not to rely on them And how do you avoid relying on them? Are you going to force EU companies to choose a EU cloud provider, even when they would have preferred a US one? No, you need to create an offer that is competitive: and once it is, it will be competitive for everyone, not just our companies.
  - Pedrit0 6y ago
    > why is it that EU companies don't have the market share that US ones have? Why are our companies not big enough? They created the Cloud and we arrived late on this market, so we lag, therefore our companies are not big enough. This FR-GER initiative will secure market shares for european actors, in order they can grow enough to provide a sovereign platform for EU companies which need it. > Are you going to force EU companies to choose a EU cloud provider, even when they would have preferred a US one? All defense/sensitive/state owned companies, administration and maybe banking companies will not have the choice as they must comply to EU or national rules about data management. And I guess many european companies competiting with US and Chinese ones in highly competitive markets where bleeding edge techs and secrecy matter are looking for sovereign European solutions.
    - Udik 6y ago
      > They created the Cloud and we arrived late on this market Same for the web, for the mobile, and for many other sectors. We seem to be always late on the market, why is it so? > All defense/sensitive/state owned companies, administration and maybe banking companies will not have the choice Ok, so if I understand it correctly the EU is going to regulate out from some sectors non-EU companies and has to both come up with a legal excuse and to create some acceptable alternative before the regulation comes in force. And if the alternative is mediocre it won't be much of an issue because there will be no choice anyway. But the idea of creating an interoperable standard is good: it could allow a sane competition between companies to provide a basic standardised service. I hope it doesn't resolve in the next embarrassment. It won't solve our problem of constantly lagging in most consumer high tech sectors anyway.

joelbluminator 6y ago

How the U.S looked the last few years they are in no position to laugh at anyone. In fact most Americans I talk to in Europe seem quite humble.

Pedrit0 6y ago
Maybe those you can meet in Europe... But on Hacker News, Europe is (most of the time) a laughing stock for Americans.
- joelbluminator 6y ago
  As I said, not the last few years... there are things U.S did great. Building a sustainable, democratic society isn't one of them.
  - Axsuul 6y ago
    America's diversity is its biggest challenge.
    - Pedrit0 6y ago
      And what about EU with its 27 nations and different languages. Not even talking about immigration. Diversity is a challenge for all of us.
      - kazen44 6y ago
        not to mention how quickly this change has happened. America might have an issue with diversity, but compared inthe 20th century, europe as a continent has been through massive suffering. let's not forget 30 years ago, half of the continent was divided and 40 prior to that most of it was in ruins.
- jevgeni 6y ago
  HN comments are just Reddit comments with a thin veneer of objectivity. So mostly just a group think of patting each other on the back, if your opinion conforms. Europe did a lot of things that seemed unsexy, but habe proven to be good in the long run. That’s why most of the debates in Europe on healthcare, for example, are “the premiums are a tad high”. Compared to the American civil war inducing train wreck that is their healthcare reform debate. There are tech powerhouses around major universities, like TU Berlin or ETH Zurich. The problem is that the VC market is nowhere near SV. Also, SV unicorns are all consumer and ad businesses. This is where a homogeneous huge market helps. It’s easier to have network effects when everybody speaks the same language.