6 ms·

I'm mainly annoyed about the rollout of HS2 because of the government's insistence of all projects starting/ending in London. A new trans-pennine rail tunnel fr

I'm mainly annoyed about the rollout of HS2 because of the government's insistence of all projects starting/ending in London. A new trans-pennine rail tunnel from Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield under the peaks, and Manc-Leeds-Hull would add vastly more value than a faster connection between already well connected cities. This is planned for 'HS3', but that could be 40+ years off at this rate. The large-scale projects need to srart every 10 years or so... the UK is in desperate need of non-car infrastructure if it wants to be carbon zero by 2050.

BlackVanilla 6y ago
That's a fair criticism. Why not both, I guess? I think that criticism goes beyond the government. Parties of all colours have been far too London/South East-centric. I don't know of any infrastructure projects of reasonable size in Wales or the South West for instance. Forgetting about places is a very effective way to keep generating forgotten about places.
- adwww 6y ago
  > I don't know of any infrastructure projects of reasonable size in Wales or the South West One of Europe's largest construction sites is currently in Somerset - Hinkley Point C.
  - BlackVanilla 6y ago
    You got me! I worded my comment poorly. I should've said I don't know of MANY, not any.
chrisseaton 6y ago
> A new trans-pennine rail tunnel from Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield under the peaks, and Manc-Leeds-Hull would add vastly more value than a faster connection between already well connected cities. I live in this area and do these routes frequently and yes I'd love them to be more connected too. But realistically, like almost everyone else in the country almost all my travel is to and from London, because that's where most things happen.
- reallydontask 6y ago
  Could this not be because of lack of said transport links on an East-West Axis? I can't help but feel that if the trains had dedicated business carriages with reliable internet access, nobody would be all that fussed to get to London 20 to 30 minutes quicker edit: I don't mean First Class. I mean something like an all tables carriage or even just a fold down tables that can easily accommodate a 17" laptop (even if not many people have them, the space is what I'm after)
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > Could this not be because of lack of said transport links on an East-West Axis? The majority of the nation's key institutions are in London. How does improving an East-West axis improve access to them, or encourage them to move? > I can't help but feel that if the trains had dedicated business carriages with reliable internet access There are dedicated business carriages on London trains. The internet isn't fantastic but it's fine. But I'd rather not be on the train long enough to need it.
    - oakesm9 6y ago
      Could it not be that most institutions are in London _because_ of those good connections. The idea is to improve connects between different cities which will make it viable for companies to be located there.
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        This doesn't make any sense - for an institution to move from London to Leeds you don't need one line from Manchester to Leeds, you need a line from everywhere to Leeds.
        diroussel 6y ago
        Yep, and a good line from Liverpool and Manchester to Leeds would be a very good start. As then you good access to Leeds from many of the highly populated areas of the UK.
C1sc0cat 6y ago
Rail lines out of London are already very very congested - and the infrastructure is creaking. The idea is that hs2 would be new track that would free up slots on the existing network.
gandalfian 6y ago
"A new trans-pennine rail tunnel would add more value" It always surprises me how many existing unused tunnels there already are under the Pennines. It's as if every generation is compelled to digg a train tunnel there as a rite of passage of something.
Theodores 6y ago
It is true what you say and demonstrated by where the TBM will inevitably start - at the London end. There is a congestion problem at Paddington in the West and with St Pancras/Euston in the north of London. So even if HS2 only gets to do its work at the London end before politicians cancel it then this part of the north-west London will be done, unblocking access to London for express trains. If they started in Birmingham and got cancelled they would not get this bit done. There is also property speculation to consider, already far out places like Reading are now more accessible for London due to HS2, driving up house prices. A half completed HS2 that doesn't get to Birmingham will have a similar effect.
- nicktelford 6y ago
  > It is true what you say and demonstrated by where the TBM will inevitably start - at the London end. The only significant tunnelling is at the London end, and in the Cotswolds. It doesn't really make much sense to begin in the middle. The approach to Birmingham will be almost entirely on the surface.
DrBazza 6y ago
Agreed. I can't find the link but it was recent - it was something along the lines of: for every pound spent on transport infrastructure in the UK, in the South East the investment returns more than 10x the return of other regions in the UK. So the money is 'well spent' in the South East. It's a vicious spiral for the rest of the country.
M2Ys4U 6y ago
>A new trans-pennine rail tunnel from Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield under the peaks, and Manc-Leeds-Hull would add vastly more value than a faster connection between already well connected cities. "A faster connection between already well connected cities" HS2 is not. Okay, well it is, but only as a side-effect. HS2 is all about capacity; The West-Coast Mainline (WCML) is full. Intercity trains have to compete for paths with regional and local trains (plus freight trains) which run slower and stop much more frequently. Moving the intercity trains to their own dedicated track means they won't be slowed down by slower trains, it also means we can put more trains on the WCML. This in turn means that, although HS2 is a North-South track, East-West trains will benefit. Hell, trains going in and out of Wales will benefit even though HS2 goes nowhere near Wales. So why is HS2 high-speed if it's about capacity and not about speed? The simple answer is: Why not? Building a high-speed track is actually not that much more expensive than building to the standards used on existing mainlines, but it does provide better long-term economic benefits. --- Now, a dedicated high-speed East-West line in the North is also well overdue. Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR; aka HS3) is what's planned here but they can't finalise the plans until the detailed plans for Phase 2 of HS2 are themselves finalised. Why? Because there's no use in building NPR if it won't properly join up (both literally and figuratively) with HS2 which is the most pressing infrastructure need.

BlackVanilla 6y ago

That's a fair criticism. Why not both, I guess? I think that criticism goes beyond the government. Parties of all colours have been far too London/South East-centric. I don't know of any infrastructure projects of reasonable size in Wales or the South West for instance. Forgetting about places is a very effective way to keep generating forgotten about places.

adwww 6y ago
> I don't know of any infrastructure projects of reasonable size in Wales or the South West One of Europe's largest construction sites is currently in Somerset - Hinkley Point C.
- BlackVanilla 6y ago
  You got me! I worded my comment poorly. I should've said I don't know of MANY, not any.

chrisseaton 6y ago

> A new trans-pennine rail tunnel from Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield under the peaks, and Manc-Leeds-Hull would add vastly more value than a faster connection between already well connected cities. I live in this area and do these routes frequently and yes I'd love them to be more connected too. But realistically, like almost everyone else in the country almost all my travel is to and from London, because that's where most things happen.

reallydontask 6y ago
Could this not be because of lack of said transport links on an East-West Axis? I can't help but feel that if the trains had dedicated business carriages with reliable internet access, nobody would be all that fussed to get to London 20 to 30 minutes quicker edit: I don't mean First Class. I mean something like an all tables carriage or even just a fold down tables that can easily accommodate a 17" laptop (even if not many people have them, the space is what I'm after)
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > Could this not be because of lack of said transport links on an East-West Axis? The majority of the nation's key institutions are in London. How does improving an East-West axis improve access to them, or encourage them to move? > I can't help but feel that if the trains had dedicated business carriages with reliable internet access There are dedicated business carriages on London trains. The internet isn't fantastic but it's fine. But I'd rather not be on the train long enough to need it.
  - oakesm9 6y ago
    Could it not be that most institutions are in London _because_ of those good connections. The idea is to improve connects between different cities which will make it viable for companies to be located there.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      This doesn't make any sense - for an institution to move from London to Leeds you don't need one line from Manchester to Leeds, you need a line from everywhere to Leeds.
      - diroussel 6y ago
        Yep, and a good line from Liverpool and Manchester to Leeds would be a very good start. As then you good access to Leeds from many of the highly populated areas of the UK.

C1sc0cat 6y ago

Rail lines out of London are already very very congested - and the infrastructure is creaking. The idea is that hs2 would be new track that would free up slots on the existing network.

gandalfian 6y ago

"A new trans-pennine rail tunnel would add more value" It always surprises me how many existing unused tunnels there already are under the Pennines. It's as if every generation is compelled to digg a train tunnel there as a rite of passage of something.

Theodores 6y ago

It is true what you say and demonstrated by where the TBM will inevitably start - at the London end. There is a congestion problem at Paddington in the West and with St Pancras/Euston in the north of London. So even if HS2 only gets to do its work at the London end before politicians cancel it then this part of the north-west London will be done, unblocking access to London for express trains. If they started in Birmingham and got cancelled they would not get this bit done. There is also property speculation to consider, already far out places like Reading are now more accessible for London due to HS2, driving up house prices. A half completed HS2 that doesn't get to Birmingham will have a similar effect.

nicktelford 6y ago
> It is true what you say and demonstrated by where the TBM will inevitably start - at the London end. The only significant tunnelling is at the London end, and in the Cotswolds. It doesn't really make much sense to begin in the middle. The approach to Birmingham will be almost entirely on the surface.

DrBazza 6y ago

Agreed. I can't find the link but it was recent - it was something along the lines of: for every pound spent on transport infrastructure in the UK, in the South East the investment returns more than 10x the return of other regions in the UK. So the money is 'well spent' in the South East. It's a vicious spiral for the rest of the country.

M2Ys4U 6y ago

>A new trans-pennine rail tunnel from Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield under the peaks, and Manc-Leeds-Hull would add vastly more value than a faster connection between already well connected cities. "A faster connection between already well connected cities" HS2 is not. Okay, well it is, but only as a side-effect. HS2 is all about capacity; The West-Coast Mainline (WCML) is full. Intercity trains have to compete for paths with regional and local trains (plus freight trains) which run slower and stop much more frequently. Moving the intercity trains to their own dedicated track means they won't be slowed down by slower trains, it also means we can put more trains on the WCML. This in turn means that, although HS2 is a North-South track, East-West trains will benefit. Hell, trains going in and out of Wales will benefit even though HS2 goes nowhere near Wales. So why is HS2 high-speed if it's about capacity and not about speed? The simple answer is: Why not? Building a high-speed track is actually not that much more expensive than building to the standards used on existing mainlines, but it does provide better long-term economic benefits. --- Now, a dedicated high-speed East-West line in the North is also well overdue. Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR; aka HS3) is what's planned here but they can't finalise the plans until the detailed plans for Phase 2 of HS2 are themselves finalised. Why? Because there's no use in building NPR if it won't properly join up (both literally and figuratively) with HS2 which is the most pressing infrastructure need.