3 ms·

I.e. Germany has: * A good, free education system * Social security * Good healthcare system * Proper democracy * Politicians who aren't clowns * A total of 50

I.e. Germany has: * A good, free education system * Social security * Good healthcare system * Proper democracy * Politicians who aren't clowns * A total of 500 police killings ... in total since 1950 The US is close to becoming a failed state due to the increasing wealth and income gap. Also, please do me a favour and read up a bit on the history of silicon valley and us innovation. It's hard to claim the government investment isn't a big factor. The DoD is behind a lot of stuff. And I say this with envy - the US model of government investment is way better than the European one. OP correctly described the issues we have. (Not saying Germany is perfect and the US is pure shit, I was being overly provocative to establish an extreme counter point)

tpush 6y ago
> * A good, free education system * Social security * Good healthcare system * Proper democracy * Politicians who aren't clowns * A total of 500 police killings ... in total since 1950 None of these things (for good or bad) have anything to do with making good tech products.
- readarticle 6y ago
  The implication is these factors will suffice in attracting and retaining talent, instead of simply paying them more. Completely delusional in the face of the past thirty years or so, but it remains a worryingly common talking point in WE “tech adjacent” circles.
- sildur 6y ago
  But they do have all to do with low salaries. My salary is low for American standards, but I can rely on public hospitals, public schools, and public transportation systems. I do not need to save for retirement either. Or for my kids tuition.
  - mtberatwork 6y ago
    > My salary is low for American standards but I can rely on public hospitals, public schools, and public transportation systems. I do not need to save for retirement either. Or for my kids tuition. I think about this quite a bit, while the median middle class salary is higher in the US, the burden to fund everything out of pocket here is enormous. If salaries are 10-20% higher in the US, much of that goes out the window to fund things like health care, retirement, higher education, daycare/pre-K education, high rents, etc. Things that most Europeans take for granted. All of a sudden that 10-20% gap seems much smaller. Also keep in mind that not everyone working in tech in the US is making SV level salaries.
    - distances 6y ago
      Reading by the HN comments the salary difference in IT is 100-200% though, so there you start getting some difference. A medium/median salaried person would be much better off in Western Europe for sure.
iagovar 6y ago
Yes, the DoD is behind a lot of stuff but they seem to get it right, unlike most EU countries with gov funded programs that are an absolute disaster. EU taxpayers consider unacceptable that govt funding goes to waste, but in the end gov funding goes to waster anyway because the amount of bureaucracy is staggering and we don't even get internal competition like the US. So we waster money and we basically burn it without any positive outcome.
- thecleaner 6y ago
  This is because most decisions in the EU are dictated by France and Germany. Germany for example is very hierarchical in how things get done and hence this is reflected in the EU too.
  - turbinerneiter 6y ago
    Not sure if if Germany is very hierarchical (not saying I'm sure it's not). I experience it as being very decentralized and as a collection of quite independent actors. Granted, I never worked in a Volkswagen-style mega-corp, so my perception is biased.
- jandrewrogers 6y ago
  The US DoD has a unique advantage relative to their counterparts -- I've worked with a number -- in that they culturally have a very high risk-tolerance for a government org. They will readily spend vast quantities of money on a high-risk/high-reward project knowing that it will likely fail, and they are okay with that. They've internalized the idea that maintaining an absolute tech advantage, which is an explicit objective, requires being willing to fail spectacularly. We talk a lot about those failures in the US but they also have many brilliant successes. In my experience, many EU equivalent programs have a strong bias toward being the "second-mover" because it is seen as too risky to be the first-mover. When opportunities arise to be a legitimate first-mover in Europe with a government program, everything tends to grind to a halt due to analysis paralysis because everyone is terrified of failure. I've seen a number of cases where the US showed years late but ended up taking the lead because they can make decisions so quickly and back that with large quantities of money.
maga20yes 6y ago
"close to becoming a failed state" citation needed. Last I checked SP500 has multiplied by 4 in 10 years. The DAX, uhmm..
ReticentVole 6y ago
Germany is (until recently) also ethnically homogeneous, unlike the USA. Its a lot easier to offer those services when everyone has roughly the same income, the same education, the same IQ, the same genetics, the same family experience.
- lorenzhs 6y ago
  If by until recently you mean the 1960s, maybe? Why do people always assume that there wasn't any immigration to Germany before 2015? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter It's so boring that in every discussion where some other country does something better than the US, people find a million reasons why this could never work there.
LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
> * Politicians who aren't clowns * How did you get that impression? Hm K, maybe not horror clown grade, rather sad clowns.

tpush 6y ago

> * A good, free education system * Social security * Good healthcare system * Proper democracy * Politicians who aren't clowns * A total of 500 police killings ... in total since 1950 None of these things (for good or bad) have anything to do with making good tech products.

readarticle 6y ago
The implication is these factors will suffice in attracting and retaining talent, instead of simply paying them more. Completely delusional in the face of the past thirty years or so, but it remains a worryingly common talking point in WE “tech adjacent” circles.
sildur 6y ago
But they do have all to do with low salaries. My salary is low for American standards, but I can rely on public hospitals, public schools, and public transportation systems. I do not need to save for retirement either. Or for my kids tuition.
- mtberatwork 6y ago
  > My salary is low for American standards but I can rely on public hospitals, public schools, and public transportation systems. I do not need to save for retirement either. Or for my kids tuition. I think about this quite a bit, while the median middle class salary is higher in the US, the burden to fund everything out of pocket here is enormous. If salaries are 10-20% higher in the US, much of that goes out the window to fund things like health care, retirement, higher education, daycare/pre-K education, high rents, etc. Things that most Europeans take for granted. All of a sudden that 10-20% gap seems much smaller. Also keep in mind that not everyone working in tech in the US is making SV level salaries.
  - distances 6y ago
    Reading by the HN comments the salary difference in IT is 100-200% though, so there you start getting some difference. A medium/median salaried person would be much better off in Western Europe for sure.

iagovar 6y ago

Yes, the DoD is behind a lot of stuff but they seem to get it right, unlike most EU countries with gov funded programs that are an absolute disaster. EU taxpayers consider unacceptable that govt funding goes to waste, but in the end gov funding goes to waster anyway because the amount of bureaucracy is staggering and we don't even get internal competition like the US. So we waster money and we basically burn it without any positive outcome.

thecleaner 6y ago
This is because most decisions in the EU are dictated by France and Germany. Germany for example is very hierarchical in how things get done and hence this is reflected in the EU too.
- turbinerneiter 6y ago
  Not sure if if Germany is very hierarchical (not saying I'm sure it's not). I experience it as being very decentralized and as a collection of quite independent actors. Granted, I never worked in a Volkswagen-style mega-corp, so my perception is biased.
jandrewrogers 6y ago
The US DoD has a unique advantage relative to their counterparts -- I've worked with a number -- in that they culturally have a very high risk-tolerance for a government org. They will readily spend vast quantities of money on a high-risk/high-reward project knowing that it will likely fail, and they are okay with that. They've internalized the idea that maintaining an absolute tech advantage, which is an explicit objective, requires being willing to fail spectacularly. We talk a lot about those failures in the US but they also have many brilliant successes. In my experience, many EU equivalent programs have a strong bias toward being the "second-mover" because it is seen as too risky to be the first-mover. When opportunities arise to be a legitimate first-mover in Europe with a government program, everything tends to grind to a halt due to analysis paralysis because everyone is terrified of failure. I've seen a number of cases where the US showed years late but ended up taking the lead because they can make decisions so quickly and back that with large quantities of money.

maga20yes 6y ago

"close to becoming a failed state" citation needed. Last I checked SP500 has multiplied by 4 in 10 years. The DAX, uhmm..

ReticentVole 6y ago

Germany is (until recently) also ethnically homogeneous, unlike the USA. Its a lot easier to offer those services when everyone has roughly the same income, the same education, the same IQ, the same genetics, the same family experience.

lorenzhs 6y ago
If by until recently you mean the 1960s, maybe? Why do people always assume that there wasn't any immigration to Germany before 2015? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter It's so boring that in every discussion where some other country does something better than the US, people find a million reasons why this could never work there.

LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago

> * Politicians who aren't clowns * How did you get that impression? Hm K, maybe not horror clown grade, rather sad clowns.