6 ms·

How do they think Google became what it is, or most American companies like Amazon? That the US government funded it and kickstarted them with VC funds? A comp

How do they think Google became what it is, or most American companies like Amazon? That the US government funded it and kickstarted them with VC funds? A company like Airbus makes some sort of sense since the government heavily funds Boeing/Lockheed Martin via defense contracts. But Amazon/Google and VC-backed tech startups and companies? Not to mention that the pay for software developers and engineers in general in Europe is ridiculously low for a comparable position in the United States, or even Japan. How are they going to retain talent?

turbinerneiter 6y ago
I.e. Germany has: * A good, free education system * Social security * Good healthcare system * Proper democracy * Politicians who aren't clowns * A total of 500 police killings ... in total since 1950 The US is close to becoming a failed state due to the increasing wealth and income gap. Also, please do me a favour and read up a bit on the history of silicon valley and us innovation. It's hard to claim the government investment isn't a big factor. The DoD is behind a lot of stuff. And I say this with envy - the US model of government investment is way better than the European one. OP correctly described the issues we have. (Not saying Germany is perfect and the US is pure shit, I was being overly provocative to establish an extreme counter point)
- tpush 6y ago
  > * A good, free education system * Social security * Good healthcare system * Proper democracy * Politicians who aren't clowns * A total of 500 police killings ... in total since 1950 None of these things (for good or bad) have anything to do with making good tech products.
  - readarticle 6y ago
    The implication is these factors will suffice in attracting and retaining talent, instead of simply paying them more. Completely delusional in the face of the past thirty years or so, but it remains a worryingly common talking point in WE “tech adjacent” circles.
  - sildur 6y ago
    But they do have all to do with low salaries. My salary is low for American standards, but I can rely on public hospitals, public schools, and public transportation systems. I do not need to save for retirement either. Or for my kids tuition.
    - mtberatwork 6y ago
      > My salary is low for American standards but I can rely on public hospitals, public schools, and public transportation systems. I do not need to save for retirement either. Or for my kids tuition. I think about this quite a bit, while the median middle class salary is higher in the US, the burden to fund everything out of pocket here is enormous. If salaries are 10-20% higher in the US, much of that goes out the window to fund things like health care, retirement, higher education, daycare/pre-K education, high rents, etc. Things that most Europeans take for granted. All of a sudden that 10-20% gap seems much smaller. Also keep in mind that not everyone working in tech in the US is making SV level salaries.
      - distances 6y ago
        Reading by the HN comments the salary difference in IT is 100-200% though, so there you start getting some difference. A medium/median salaried person would be much better off in Western Europe for sure.
- iagovar 6y ago
  Yes, the DoD is behind a lot of stuff but they seem to get it right, unlike most EU countries with gov funded programs that are an absolute disaster. EU taxpayers consider unacceptable that govt funding goes to waste, but in the end gov funding goes to waster anyway because the amount of bureaucracy is staggering and we don't even get internal competition like the US. So we waster money and we basically burn it without any positive outcome.
  - thecleaner 6y ago
    This is because most decisions in the EU are dictated by France and Germany. Germany for example is very hierarchical in how things get done and hence this is reflected in the EU too.
    - turbinerneiter 6y ago
      Not sure if if Germany is very hierarchical (not saying I'm sure it's not). I experience it as being very decentralized and as a collection of quite independent actors. Granted, I never worked in a Volkswagen-style mega-corp, so my perception is biased.
  - jandrewrogers 6y ago
    The US DoD has a unique advantage relative to their counterparts -- I've worked with a number -- in that they culturally have a very high risk-tolerance for a government org. They will readily spend vast quantities of money on a high-risk/high-reward project knowing that it will likely fail, and they are okay with that. They've internalized the idea that maintaining an absolute tech advantage, which is an explicit objective, requires being willing to fail spectacularly. We talk a lot about those failures in the US but they also have many brilliant successes. In my experience, many EU equivalent programs have a strong bias toward being the "second-mover" because it is seen as too risky to be the first-mover. When opportunities arise to be a legitimate first-mover in Europe with a government program, everything tends to grind to a halt due to analysis paralysis because everyone is terrified of failure. I've seen a number of cases where the US showed years late but ended up taking the lead because they can make decisions so quickly and back that with large quantities of money.
- maga20yes 6y ago
  "close to becoming a failed state" citation needed. Last I checked SP500 has multiplied by 4 in 10 years. The DAX, uhmm..
- ReticentVole 6y ago
  Germany is (until recently) also ethnically homogeneous, unlike the USA. Its a lot easier to offer those services when everyone has roughly the same income, the same education, the same IQ, the same genetics, the same family experience.
  - lorenzhs 6y ago
    If by until recently you mean the 1960s, maybe? Why do people always assume that there wasn't any immigration to Germany before 2015? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter It's so boring that in every discussion where some other country does something better than the US, people find a million reasons why this could never work there.
- LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
  > * Politicians who aren't clowns * How did you get that impression? Hm K, maybe not horror clown grade, rather sad clowns.
narag 6y ago
The problem is not retaining talent. People doesn't just migrate in mass to the USA. The problem is how easy is to create a company, raise funds and get the needed licenses.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >People doesn't just migrate in mass to the USA. Pretty sure the strict and difficult process of getting a working visa has something to do with that as well, not just that not everyone on the planet is interested in migrating.
  - speedgoose 6y ago
    Usually you migrate to a better country to improve your life. USA is attractive in some ways, but also unattractive in some other ways that are personal to everyone. For me the salaries in the silicon Valley are very attractive, but the social issues in the country makes me prefer Europe. Even though my salary is ridiculously low compared to USA.
  - narag 6y ago
    Indeed. That and more considerations like leaving behind your family, friends, love interests. Or the language, culture, food. Salaries in some of our neighbours like Germany are much higher and still only a small percent of the talented people move there. Money is an incentive for sure. But it's not an absolute factor.
dntbnmpls 6y ago
> How do they think Google became what it is, or most American companies like Amazon? Because of us government funding which created silicon valley. Silicon Valley itself is pretty much a DoD project. The foundation of the internet and many of these companies were laid by government - direct spending, subsidies, tax breaks and in amazon's case, legal protection ( they didn't have to collect state taxes ) until fairly recently. > A company like Airbus makes some sort of sense since the government heavily funds Boeing/Lockheed Martin via defense contracts. This is silicon valley. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Valley#History_(pre-1970s) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Valley#History_(pre-19... > But Amazon/Google and VC-backed tech startups and companies? Many of the VCs had indirect government ties. But that's besides the point. Amazon/Google doesn't exist without silicon valley which the government created, government subsidies and government protection. And this isn't including the government's role in keeping international markets open to google/amazon/etc. Notice how there wasn't much pushback from most countries while google/amazon gobbled up entire countries? Now compare that to intense pushback china gets for any and everything. > Not to mention that the pay for software developers and engineers in general in Europe is ridiculously low for a comparable position in the United States, or even Japan. How are they going to retain talent? Considering american tech companies own the european market why wouldn't american developers get higher pay? If europeans protected their market and european tech companies take over the european market, tech pay would inevitably rise.
- thecleaner 6y ago
  > Now compare that to intense pushback china gets for any and everything. Its much easier to trust democratic governments than autocratic ones. If China were a democracy I highly doubt this would be the case. Sure some would push back but many would back it too. The push back that China receives is also because of their economic colonialism and I guess rightfully so. German car companies for example dont receive as much push back. Ericsson/Nokia doesn't receive as much pushback as their counterpart Huwawei.
  - dntbnmpls 6y ago
    > Its much easier to trust democratic governments than autocratic ones. History shows otherwise. They are equally shady. After all, it was a democracy that broke every treaty with the natives and exterminated them. But I guess it all depends on your biases and agenda. Certainly, nobody can objectively say that US, Britain, France, etc as any less shadier than any autocratic countries. > If China were a democracy I highly doubt this would be the case. Really? Bolivia is a democracy. Venezuela is a democracy. Russia is a democracy. If china were a democracy, the chinese people would vote to fully annex hong kong and taiwan. And being a democracy, I suppose the chinese government would have to follow through, huh? > The push back that China receives is also because of their economic colonialism and I guess rightfully so. Now this is rather absurd. Especially considering it is us trying to force china to adopt our ways. But agenda tends to blind people. > German car companies for example dont receive as much push back. Ericsson/Nokia doesn't receive as much pushback as their counterpart Huwawei. But iranian, venezuelan, russian, etc companies do. And conveniently saudi arabian companies don't. They are not a democracy. So there goes your theory about democracy. It has nothing to do with democracy. It's about geopolitics and power. The need to maintain dominance over the world as long as we can.
ohgodplsno 6y ago
>How do they think Google became what it is, With CIA funding, amongst others. https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-cia-and-nsa-research-grants-for-mass-surveillance/ https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-ci...
- paganel 6y ago
  It was acquired quite early on by Google, but the original Google Earth/Maps project which had been developed by Keyhole had received money from In-Q-Tel, described on the wikipedia page as: > It invests in high-tech companies for the sole purpose of keeping the Central Intelligence Agency, and other intelligence agencies, equipped with the latest in information technology in support of United States intelligence capability. I've said it before, it still puzzles me how come the Russians let the Google StreetView car do its thing on the streets of Moscow and other big Russian cities, the Chinese were smarter than that.

turbinerneiter 6y ago

I.e. Germany has: * A good, free education system * Social security * Good healthcare system * Proper democracy * Politicians who aren't clowns * A total of 500 police killings ... in total since 1950 The US is close to becoming a failed state due to the increasing wealth and income gap. Also, please do me a favour and read up a bit on the history of silicon valley and us innovation. It's hard to claim the government investment isn't a big factor. The DoD is behind a lot of stuff. And I say this with envy - the US model of government investment is way better than the European one. OP correctly described the issues we have. (Not saying Germany is perfect and the US is pure shit, I was being overly provocative to establish an extreme counter point)

tpush 6y ago
> * A good, free education system * Social security * Good healthcare system * Proper democracy * Politicians who aren't clowns * A total of 500 police killings ... in total since 1950 None of these things (for good or bad) have anything to do with making good tech products.
- readarticle 6y ago
  The implication is these factors will suffice in attracting and retaining talent, instead of simply paying them more. Completely delusional in the face of the past thirty years or so, but it remains a worryingly common talking point in WE “tech adjacent” circles.
- sildur 6y ago
  But they do have all to do with low salaries. My salary is low for American standards, but I can rely on public hospitals, public schools, and public transportation systems. I do not need to save for retirement either. Or for my kids tuition.
  - mtberatwork 6y ago
    > My salary is low for American standards but I can rely on public hospitals, public schools, and public transportation systems. I do not need to save for retirement either. Or for my kids tuition. I think about this quite a bit, while the median middle class salary is higher in the US, the burden to fund everything out of pocket here is enormous. If salaries are 10-20% higher in the US, much of that goes out the window to fund things like health care, retirement, higher education, daycare/pre-K education, high rents, etc. Things that most Europeans take for granted. All of a sudden that 10-20% gap seems much smaller. Also keep in mind that not everyone working in tech in the US is making SV level salaries.
    - distances 6y ago
      Reading by the HN comments the salary difference in IT is 100-200% though, so there you start getting some difference. A medium/median salaried person would be much better off in Western Europe for sure.
iagovar 6y ago
Yes, the DoD is behind a lot of stuff but they seem to get it right, unlike most EU countries with gov funded programs that are an absolute disaster. EU taxpayers consider unacceptable that govt funding goes to waste, but in the end gov funding goes to waster anyway because the amount of bureaucracy is staggering and we don't even get internal competition like the US. So we waster money and we basically burn it without any positive outcome.
- thecleaner 6y ago
  This is because most decisions in the EU are dictated by France and Germany. Germany for example is very hierarchical in how things get done and hence this is reflected in the EU too.
  - turbinerneiter 6y ago
    Not sure if if Germany is very hierarchical (not saying I'm sure it's not). I experience it as being very decentralized and as a collection of quite independent actors. Granted, I never worked in a Volkswagen-style mega-corp, so my perception is biased.
- jandrewrogers 6y ago
  The US DoD has a unique advantage relative to their counterparts -- I've worked with a number -- in that they culturally have a very high risk-tolerance for a government org. They will readily spend vast quantities of money on a high-risk/high-reward project knowing that it will likely fail, and they are okay with that. They've internalized the idea that maintaining an absolute tech advantage, which is an explicit objective, requires being willing to fail spectacularly. We talk a lot about those failures in the US but they also have many brilliant successes. In my experience, many EU equivalent programs have a strong bias toward being the "second-mover" because it is seen as too risky to be the first-mover. When opportunities arise to be a legitimate first-mover in Europe with a government program, everything tends to grind to a halt due to analysis paralysis because everyone is terrified of failure. I've seen a number of cases where the US showed years late but ended up taking the lead because they can make decisions so quickly and back that with large quantities of money.
maga20yes 6y ago
"close to becoming a failed state" citation needed. Last I checked SP500 has multiplied by 4 in 10 years. The DAX, uhmm..
ReticentVole 6y ago
Germany is (until recently) also ethnically homogeneous, unlike the USA. Its a lot easier to offer those services when everyone has roughly the same income, the same education, the same IQ, the same genetics, the same family experience.
- lorenzhs 6y ago
  If by until recently you mean the 1960s, maybe? Why do people always assume that there wasn't any immigration to Germany before 2015? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter It's so boring that in every discussion where some other country does something better than the US, people find a million reasons why this could never work there.
LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
> * Politicians who aren't clowns * How did you get that impression? Hm K, maybe not horror clown grade, rather sad clowns.

narag 6y ago

The problem is not retaining talent. People doesn't just migrate in mass to the USA. The problem is how easy is to create a company, raise funds and get the needed licenses.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>People doesn't just migrate in mass to the USA. Pretty sure the strict and difficult process of getting a working visa has something to do with that as well, not just that not everyone on the planet is interested in migrating.
- speedgoose 6y ago
  Usually you migrate to a better country to improve your life. USA is attractive in some ways, but also unattractive in some other ways that are personal to everyone. For me the salaries in the silicon Valley are very attractive, but the social issues in the country makes me prefer Europe. Even though my salary is ridiculously low compared to USA.
- narag 6y ago
  Indeed. That and more considerations like leaving behind your family, friends, love interests. Or the language, culture, food. Salaries in some of our neighbours like Germany are much higher and still only a small percent of the talented people move there. Money is an incentive for sure. But it's not an absolute factor.

dntbnmpls 6y ago

> How do they think Google became what it is, or most American companies like Amazon? Because of us government funding which created silicon valley. Silicon Valley itself is pretty much a DoD project. The foundation of the internet and many of these companies were laid by government - direct spending, subsidies, tax breaks and in amazon's case, legal protection ( they didn't have to collect state taxes ) until fairly recently. > A company like Airbus makes some sort of sense since the government heavily funds Boeing/Lockheed Martin via defense contracts. This is silicon valley. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Valley#History_(pre-1970s) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Valley#History_(pre-19... > But Amazon/Google and VC-backed tech startups and companies? Many of the VCs had indirect government ties. But that's besides the point. Amazon/Google doesn't exist without silicon valley which the government created, government subsidies and government protection. And this isn't including the government's role in keeping international markets open to google/amazon/etc. Notice how there wasn't much pushback from most countries while google/amazon gobbled up entire countries? Now compare that to intense pushback china gets for any and everything. > Not to mention that the pay for software developers and engineers in general in Europe is ridiculously low for a comparable position in the United States, or even Japan. How are they going to retain talent? Considering american tech companies own the european market why wouldn't american developers get higher pay? If europeans protected their market and european tech companies take over the european market, tech pay would inevitably rise.

thecleaner 6y ago
> Now compare that to intense pushback china gets for any and everything. Its much easier to trust democratic governments than autocratic ones. If China were a democracy I highly doubt this would be the case. Sure some would push back but many would back it too. The push back that China receives is also because of their economic colonialism and I guess rightfully so. German car companies for example dont receive as much push back. Ericsson/Nokia doesn't receive as much pushback as their counterpart Huwawei.
- dntbnmpls 6y ago
  > Its much easier to trust democratic governments than autocratic ones. History shows otherwise. They are equally shady. After all, it was a democracy that broke every treaty with the natives and exterminated them. But I guess it all depends on your biases and agenda. Certainly, nobody can objectively say that US, Britain, France, etc as any less shadier than any autocratic countries. > If China were a democracy I highly doubt this would be the case. Really? Bolivia is a democracy. Venezuela is a democracy. Russia is a democracy. If china were a democracy, the chinese people would vote to fully annex hong kong and taiwan. And being a democracy, I suppose the chinese government would have to follow through, huh? > The push back that China receives is also because of their economic colonialism and I guess rightfully so. Now this is rather absurd. Especially considering it is us trying to force china to adopt our ways. But agenda tends to blind people. > German car companies for example dont receive as much push back. Ericsson/Nokia doesn't receive as much pushback as their counterpart Huwawei. But iranian, venezuelan, russian, etc companies do. And conveniently saudi arabian companies don't. They are not a democracy. So there goes your theory about democracy. It has nothing to do with democracy. It's about geopolitics and power. The need to maintain dominance over the world as long as we can.

ohgodplsno 6y ago

>How do they think Google became what it is, With CIA funding, amongst others. https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-cia-and-nsa-research-grants-for-mass-surveillance/ https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-ci...

paganel 6y ago
It was acquired quite early on by Google, but the original Google Earth/Maps project which had been developed by Keyhole had received money from In-Q-Tel, described on the wikipedia page as: > It invests in high-tech companies for the sole purpose of keeping the Central Intelligence Agency, and other intelligence agencies, equipped with the latest in information technology in support of United States intelligence capability. I've said it before, it still puzzles me how come the Russians let the Google StreetView car do its thing on the streets of Moscow and other big Russian cities, the Chinese were smarter than that.