5 ms·

Learn to pay your programmers properly.

icelancer 6y ago
No kidding. When I was in France I was appalled at the rates they were paying software developers. For a collection of countries that boasts better living standards for people, the comparative gap in pay for technical positions is absurd.
- enriquto 6y ago
  A junior developer cannot at all afford renting an appartment in Paris with his basis salary. For other jobs outside of software, it is even worse.
  - Nextgrid 6y ago
    > For other jobs outside of software, it is even worse. My understanding is that it’s the opposite. Software is significantly underpaid but you can do quite well with a typical paper-pushing bullshit job.
    - enriquto 6y ago
      An entry-level tenured professor or a nurse at a hospital earn less than 2000 EUR per month. This gives them barely enough to rent a small room in a shared apartment.
  - namdnay 6y ago
    > A junior developer cannot at all afford renting an appartment in Paris with his basis salary To be fair, that's the same in London or SF :)
    - 121789 6y ago
      a junior developer in SF can pretty easily afford to rent their own apartment straight out of university. most won't, but they could.
Nextgrid 6y ago
Pay is a problem but it’s one of many. The working culture is another big problem. Here’s a thread that summarises it quite well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17169504 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17169504
- Udik 6y ago
  Agreed, more than anything else it's a cultural problem. In France and Italy in particular. And salaries are a consequence of it.
namdnay 6y ago
Meh that's honestly not the number one problem in france. I'd even say it's a competitive advantage. Not everyone is willing to expatriate for salary, you can get really great engineers for half or even a third of what they'd be paid in SV
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  But then why hasn't France been invaded by US companies to hire these great engineers for half of SV money? I know they have some small offices on campus at top universities where they employ a hand full of PhDs for ML/AI research but that's a drop in the ocean.
  - namdnay 6y ago
    You could probably ask the same question of Romania, Russia or Poland. I think it's just a question of the general business friendliness of the place. And there are quite a few American companies in Paris and Sophia-Antipolis
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      Actually, I bet my horse Romania and Poland are hosting more US tech companies than France since they can get more developers per dollar there. Sophia-Antipolis is mostly semiconductor and hardware and has the weather and property prices of SoCal without the pay.
  - dukeyukey 6y ago
    Can't speak for France but London's tech scene is brimming with overseas offices of American companies. Out of my 5 tech jobs, 3 were with American companies, the other 2 being British.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      It make sense for London to be more attractive to US companies than France due to language and cultural similarities.
pmontra 6y ago
I agree but by paying such low rates / salaries they don't get all the developers they need to do all the projects they would like to do (source: my experience in Italy, where there are more companies looking for developers than developers with spare time for them) and still those companies manage to keep going no matter if projects are delayed or cancelled. If they couldn't either they would close or find more money to spend. Of course that's great for those countries that can move faster, their advantage increases.

No kidding. When I was in France I was appalled at the rates they were paying software developers. For a collection of countries that boasts better living standards for people, the comparative gap in pay for technical positions is absurd.

enriquto 6y ago
A junior developer cannot at all afford renting an appartment in Paris with his basis salary. For other jobs outside of software, it is even worse.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  > For other jobs outside of software, it is even worse. My understanding is that it’s the opposite. Software is significantly underpaid but you can do quite well with a typical paper-pushing bullshit job.
  - enriquto 6y ago
    An entry-level tenured professor or a nurse at a hospital earn less than 2000 EUR per month. This gives them barely enough to rent a small room in a shared apartment.
- namdnay 6y ago
  > A junior developer cannot at all afford renting an appartment in Paris with his basis salary To be fair, that's the same in London or SF :)
  - 121789 6y ago
    a junior developer in SF can pretty easily afford to rent their own apartment straight out of university. most won't, but they could.

Nextgrid 6y ago

Pay is a problem but it’s one of many. The working culture is another big problem. Here’s a thread that summarises it quite well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17169504 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17169504

Udik 6y ago
Agreed, more than anything else it's a cultural problem. In France and Italy in particular. And salaries are a consequence of it.

namdnay 6y ago

Meh that's honestly not the number one problem in france. I'd even say it's a competitive advantage. Not everyone is willing to expatriate for salary, you can get really great engineers for half or even a third of what they'd be paid in SV

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
But then why hasn't France been invaded by US companies to hire these great engineers for half of SV money? I know they have some small offices on campus at top universities where they employ a hand full of PhDs for ML/AI research but that's a drop in the ocean.
- namdnay 6y ago
  You could probably ask the same question of Romania, Russia or Poland. I think it's just a question of the general business friendliness of the place. And there are quite a few American companies in Paris and Sophia-Antipolis
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    Actually, I bet my horse Romania and Poland are hosting more US tech companies than France since they can get more developers per dollar there. Sophia-Antipolis is mostly semiconductor and hardware and has the weather and property prices of SoCal without the pay.
- dukeyukey 6y ago
  Can't speak for France but London's tech scene is brimming with overseas offices of American companies. Out of my 5 tech jobs, 3 were with American companies, the other 2 being British.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    It make sense for London to be more attractive to US companies than France due to language and cultural similarities.

pmontra 6y ago

I agree but by paying such low rates / salaries they don't get all the developers they need to do all the projects they would like to do (source: my experience in Italy, where there are more companies looking for developers than developers with spare time for them) and still those companies manage to keep going no matter if projects are delayed or cancelled. If they couldn't either they would close or find more money to spend. Of course that's great for those countries that can move faster, their advantage increases.