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Shoganai translates very easily into the English phrase "it can't be helped", with very little lost in the translation. By contrast, I think a great, useful Ja
by jbay808 6y ago
Shoganai translates very easily into the English phrase "it can't be helped", with very little lost in the translation.
By contrast, I think a great, useful Japanese phrase that I wish we had in English but is very hard to translate is otsukaresama (お疲れ様) and its variants. It's what you say to someone at the end of the work day, or after finishing something challenging like a hike, or just to acknowledge that some task is being put away for now.
The closest thing might be "good job", or "good work". But otsukaresama has no implied assessment of someone's performance. Which is good, because it means anyone can say it - a peer, family, superior, junior. You can say it to be comforting even after someone gives up for the day having failed to solve a problem, where "good work" might sound sarcastic. A literal translation might be "with respect to the tired", or something like that.
- pezezin 6y agoOtsukaresama can also be use a greeting, as in you are walking down the hall and come across a coworker, you will say "otsukaresamadesu". I have also seen people saying it upon meeting their friends. It can be used for pretty much any circumstance.
- jbay808 6y agoYeah good point! I mean you probably wouldn't use it as a greeting first thing in the morning, but it's great for acknowledging that they've just finished whatever else they were doing before you met up with them. I really like it.
- distantaidenn 6y agoNot just a coworker, but even people that work in the same building as you. Such a useful phrase.
- incompatible 6y ago"Good effort"?
- ithkuil 6y agoWould "let's call it a day" come close?
- jbay808 6y agoThat works well for some uses, but you sort of both have to be colleagues, and finishing up at the same time to use that. You can say "otsukaresama" to your colleague who is leaving before you to pick up their kids, or to your spouse when they get home from a long day, so it's a bit more flexible. It's just a nice, non-judgemental way to acknowledge someone's efforts.
- kqr 6y agoDoes it have to be a single word or phrase for all uses? That's the thing I fail to understand with these words/phrases that are hard to translate. Sure, if you need to work it into a pun or joke you almost by definition need to have a single word for two different situations, but for everyday life, I don't understand why not two or three similar phrases suffice, one for each context.
- saalweachter 6y agoIn addition to puns and jokes, poetry also frequently makes use of multiple interpretations of the same words.
- jbay808 6y agoNo, it can have multiple translations... It's just that, I've had times where I'd have a strong urge to say otsukaresama to someone, and trip over myself for lack of any appropriate way to say it. Usually those would be cases where none of the translations listed here work; not "let's call it a day" because I'm still working, not "good effort" because it's clear in the context that I have no knowledge of their level of effort and anyway that sounds like what a coach would say after practice. It just sometimes doesn't have any good translation.
- Legogris 6y agoIt can also be a greeting. Let's say your flatmate or SO comes home from work - you can greet them with "otsukaresama"
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Legogris 6y agoYeah, out of all possible words and phrases they went with しょうがない... Even "whatever" comes close enough. For languages as far apart as Japanese and English, there is no shortage of words that will lose their nuances in translation - to what extent can be argued, but language definitely is tied to culture. I think お疲れ様 is the phrase/word I miss the most in English, and I often catch myself wanting to say it to a non-Japanese speaker. Conversely, "interesting" is a word I have been feeling a lack for in Japanese. As in "That's interesting" after hearing something.
- lhorie 6y ago> As in "That's interesting" Isn't "naruhodo" close enough? It's often translated as "I see", but the acknowledging filler variation is usually just "un", whereas naruhodo expresses a mild level of surprise.
- Legogris 6y agoDepending on context it can be! But consider something like "Isn't it really interesting how X went down?". なるほど is also pretty casual, and can also imply to me new information. I don't want to imply I find it amusing or something positive - it might be something sad or atrocious (面白い is out). I don't want to imply I want to learn more or am deeply invested in it (興味ぶかい also out). That pretty much exhausts the available options when I've asked Japanese friends.
- asutekku 6y agoそうですか/そうでしょうか with a change in tone is pretty much what you’re looking for. I know it directly translates to “is that so”, but the meaning is more or less the same.
- fenomas 6y agoAgreed on both counts. The other big one I'd add is yoroshiku (+onegai-shimasu), which in the abstract conveys that the speaker anticipates some kind of help or cooperation from the listener. It can translate as anything from "looking forward to working with you" to "Please help, I'm counting on you", or even "I'm leaving this in your hands, get it done" depending on context, tone, honorifics and so on.
- wodenokoto 6y agoJust to add to its versatility: It is also used in the same part of a conversation where introduction has just been done and we would say “please to meet you” - in subtitles often translated to the cringe worthy “please be kind to me”
- lhorie 6y agoI think the closest to otsukaresama might be something like "get some rest", though I admit the original doesn't necessarily imply anything about tiredness and can be used with roughly the same frequency as a greeting. Another class of untranslatable japanese words that I find interesting are onomatopoeias. The language has a ridiculous number of them! "Pikachu", for example, is a famous example that is a combination of the onomatopoeias for sparkling (pika) and a mouse's squeaking sound (chu).
- magoghm 6y agoSomething else from Japanese that's hard to translate is yoroshikuonegaishimasu (よろしくお願いします). I've seen it translated as "pleased to meet you", "you can count on us", and "my life is in your hands" in a single episode of a TV show! I just tried it on Google Translate and it gets translated as "Thank you".
- jbay808 6y agoYeah, that's a hard one too. "I'm in your care", maybe?
- morelisp 6y agoA related favorite Japanese word of mine is "sasuga" (lit. "as one would expect") - a compliment that's mild not because the work was merely adequate, but because you trusted the person to meet your high expectations to begin with. I'm a native English speaker and despair for good ways to convey both of these attitudes in code review.
- wodenokoto 6y agoThat reminds me of my favorite joke in Community. During a review the following verdict is given: “Its good. In fact it’s better than good: it is good enough” I find it so funny because it really plays with our normal use of “good enough” as “not good, but useable” but of course it is entirely possible to make something that is good but not good enough
- wodenokoto 6y agoI always felt like, how ganbatte almost translates to good luck, as it’s a set phrase you’d use everywhere English would use it, it still has a completely different connotation. Good luck is out of your control, while ganbatte is cheering for you to do your best and the phrase can therefore be used even broader than good luck. In a similar vein I always felt like otsukaresama somehow appreciates the effort that was put in to the work, where “good work” appreciates the result.