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Let me take this tech-platform-speech train of thought into a recent area that may be super-downvotable (oh well!). Trump was fact checked by Twitter a few wee

Let me take this tech-platform-speech train of thought into a recent area that may be super-downvotable (oh well!). Trump was fact checked by Twitter a few weeks ago for claiming mail in ballots are linked to voter fraud [1]. In reality, there have been several hundred cases of mail in voter fraud, though certainly the convicted cases are rare on a percentage basis (though actual cases are unknown).[2] Many thousands are today posting about how black people are being continuously killed by police, but yet no Twitter fact checks. In reality, just 10 unarmed black men were killed by the police last year.[3] Can anyone here imagine Twitter putting up a fact check saying "Misrepresentation/exaggeration: Only 10 unarmed black men were killed by police last year"? Is it just a coincidence that Twitter is a company who's employees lean heavily left and their policies also lean heavily left? What would a conservatively run Twitter look like with fact checks, and would you be comfortable with that? [1] https://twitter.com/i/events/1265330601034256384?lang=en https://twitter.com/i/events/1265330601034256384?lang=en [2] https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/more-false-mail-in-ballot-claims-from-trump/ https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/more-false-mail-in-ballot-... [3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police... Need to clarify (for those harsh to judge) that I am in no way comparing the severity or tragic nature of fraud vs killing, just Twitter's response to various facts on its platform.

shkkmo 6y ago
I believe the specific issue at play was not the claims about voter fraud, but the misleading representations about who will recieve a mail in ballot in California (specifically an implied assertion that you don't need to register to vote to recieve a mail in ballot in California) The later goes against the specific rules in Twitter's "civic integrity policy" that try to prevent to use of Twitter to spread misinformation that can result in voter suppression. You can say falsely say election was rigged but you cannot falsely say that a poling location was closed (at least on Twitter).
- tuna-piano 6y ago
  Fair for that "who will receive a ballot" point. If that's all Twitter was fact checking my point would not stand. But disagree on the other point of their fact check - which goes with my argument. Here is the quote from the top of their fact check of his tweet: "Trump makes unsubstantiated claim that mail-in ballots will lead to voter fraud On Tuesday, President Trump made a series of claims about potential voter fraud after California Governor Gavin Newsom announced an effort to expand mail-in voting in California during the COVID-19 pandemic. These claims are unsubstantiated, according to CNN, Washington Post and others. Experts say mail-in ballots are very rarely linked to voter fraud." This quote could literally be written to disprove any of a number of liberal arguments - but yet curiously isn't.
jussij 6y ago
> In reality, just 10 unarmed black men were killed by the police last year.[3] Isn't that 10 way too many and the whole point of the current protests.
- tuna-piano 6y ago
  10 of any tragic thing is too many. The question is if that constitutes a trend, epidemic, pattern, etc in a country with 18,000 police agencies, 800,000 police and 330 million people. Twitter made the case that Trump's tweet was false by saying "These claims are unsubstantiated, according to CNN, Washington Post and others. Experts say mail-in ballots are very rarely linked to voter fraud." Why can't that statement be rewritten to say that "Experts say that police killings of unarmed black men are very rare". and most of those 10 were attacking police officers when they were killed
- esyir 6y ago
  This is already a decreasing trend, and drastically at that. Typically, you protest about things getting worse, not better. Do note that IIRC, this is 10 unarmed black men shot by the police though, since non-shooting deaths aren't properly tracked. So Imperfect data collection could be an issue here. And on the too many side, I think that 1 is too many, but unfortunately, the nature of the american enforcement landscape (and I don't mean police attitudes here, I mean prevalence of guns) mean that mistakes fundamentally more likely than in most other countries.
  - jussij 6y ago
    > you protest about things getting worse, not better. I'm not sure this was the motivating factor for these initial protests. Now it may have morphed into this over time, but I think they started on much simpler terms. The world watch as a police officer kill someone and then watch as the authorities did very little about it (i.e. getting sacked for killing someone is a rather strange form of punishment). The protests where in response to that poor attempted by the authorities to serve up justice for what is an obvious act of manslaughter if not murder.
okaram 6y ago
> Many thousands are today posting about how black people are being continuously killed by police, but yet no Twitter fact checks. In reality, just 10 unarmed black men were killed by the police last year. Do you realize how you moved the goalpost? The second sentence does not contradict the first one ...
- tuna-piano 6y ago
  The point is that there is mail in ballot fraud, Twitter claims Trump's fear mongering is wrong because it's extremely rare. Posted below, butt there are 18,000 police agencies and 800,000 police officers in a country of 330 million people. 10 is not an epidemic pattern just like Twitter claims that 500 mail in ballot prosecutions (over multiple years) is not a pattern.
  - okaram 6y ago
    You claim (link is paywalled) 10 is the number of unarmed black people killed by the police, which has no bearing whatsoever on how many black people are killed by the police. From similar stats, about 240 (24% of 1000 total) black people were killed by the police.
    - tuna-piano 6y ago
      I'm using unarmed as somewhat of a proxy for "potentially unjustified", but the BLM movement also uses it frequently. Of course some of the armed ones are unjustified (for example, the tragic and imo unjustified Philando Castile shooting counts as armed) and some of the unarmed ones are likely justified. "yet again, another unarmed black man was killed by the police" is the typical refrain and the narrative the protestors are screaming and tweeting.
  - gweinberg 6y ago
    It's pretty likely that most cases of voter fraud are never detected. How would they be? It's pretty certain there almost no undetected cases of people being killed by police, at least in this country.
okaram 6y ago
> Trump was fact checked by Twitter a few weeks ago for claiming mail in ballots are linked to voter fraud No, his claim was not that they are linked ... I will not replicate his tweet, but his claim was much much stronger in the tweet. If you are trying to create intelligent arguments, you need to be more careful. If you are just trolling, good job.
- tuna-piano 6y ago
  I'm not trolling. Upon rereading his tweet, you are correct that I somewhat downplayed his words. My point remains - that the strong words of calling mail in ballot fraud substantially fraudulent and calling police killings of unarmed black men a national epidemic are similar in their over-broadening of small-percentage problems. There were two parts to his tweet- (The part I have issue fact checking) 1. There is NO WAY (ZERO!) that Mail-In Ballots will be anything less than substantially fraudulent. Mail boxes will be robbed, ballots will be forged & even illegally printed out & fraudulently signed. (Part of this seems false - "anyone living in the state") 2. The Governor of California is sending Ballots to millions of people, anyone living in the state, no matter who they are or how they got there, will get one. That will be followed up with professionals telling all of these people, many of whom have never even thought of voting before, how, and for whom, to vote. This will be a Rigged Election. No way! https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1265255835124539392 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/12652558351245393...

shkkmo 6y ago

I believe the specific issue at play was not the claims about voter fraud, but the misleading representations about who will recieve a mail in ballot in California (specifically an implied assertion that you don't need to register to vote to recieve a mail in ballot in California) The later goes against the specific rules in Twitter's "civic integrity policy" that try to prevent to use of Twitter to spread misinformation that can result in voter suppression. You can say falsely say election was rigged but you cannot falsely say that a poling location was closed (at least on Twitter).

tuna-piano 6y ago
Fair for that "who will receive a ballot" point. If that's all Twitter was fact checking my point would not stand. But disagree on the other point of their fact check - which goes with my argument. Here is the quote from the top of their fact check of his tweet: "Trump makes unsubstantiated claim that mail-in ballots will lead to voter fraud On Tuesday, President Trump made a series of claims about potential voter fraud after California Governor Gavin Newsom announced an effort to expand mail-in voting in California during the COVID-19 pandemic. These claims are unsubstantiated, according to CNN, Washington Post and others. Experts say mail-in ballots are very rarely linked to voter fraud." This quote could literally be written to disprove any of a number of liberal arguments - but yet curiously isn't.

jussij 6y ago

> In reality, just 10 unarmed black men were killed by the police last year.[3] Isn't that 10 way too many and the whole point of the current protests.

tuna-piano 6y ago
10 of any tragic thing is too many. The question is if that constitutes a trend, epidemic, pattern, etc in a country with 18,000 police agencies, 800,000 police and 330 million people. Twitter made the case that Trump's tweet was false by saying "These claims are unsubstantiated, according to CNN, Washington Post and others. Experts say mail-in ballots are very rarely linked to voter fraud." Why can't that statement be rewritten to say that "Experts say that police killings of unarmed black men are very rare". and most of those 10 were attacking police officers when they were killed
esyir 6y ago
This is already a decreasing trend, and drastically at that. Typically, you protest about things getting worse, not better. Do note that IIRC, this is 10 unarmed black men shot by the police though, since non-shooting deaths aren't properly tracked. So Imperfect data collection could be an issue here. And on the too many side, I think that 1 is too many, but unfortunately, the nature of the american enforcement landscape (and I don't mean police attitudes here, I mean prevalence of guns) mean that mistakes fundamentally more likely than in most other countries.
- jussij 6y ago
  > you protest about things getting worse, not better. I'm not sure this was the motivating factor for these initial protests. Now it may have morphed into this over time, but I think they started on much simpler terms. The world watch as a police officer kill someone and then watch as the authorities did very little about it (i.e. getting sacked for killing someone is a rather strange form of punishment). The protests where in response to that poor attempted by the authorities to serve up justice for what is an obvious act of manslaughter if not murder.

okaram 6y ago

> Many thousands are today posting about how black people are being continuously killed by police, but yet no Twitter fact checks. In reality, just 10 unarmed black men were killed by the police last year. Do you realize how you moved the goalpost? The second sentence does not contradict the first one ...

tuna-piano 6y ago
The point is that there is mail in ballot fraud, Twitter claims Trump's fear mongering is wrong because it's extremely rare. Posted below, butt there are 18,000 police agencies and 800,000 police officers in a country of 330 million people. 10 is not an epidemic pattern just like Twitter claims that 500 mail in ballot prosecutions (over multiple years) is not a pattern.
- okaram 6y ago
  You claim (link is paywalled) 10 is the number of unarmed black people killed by the police, which has no bearing whatsoever on how many black people are killed by the police. From similar stats, about 240 (24% of 1000 total) black people were killed by the police.
  - tuna-piano 6y ago
    I'm using unarmed as somewhat of a proxy for "potentially unjustified", but the BLM movement also uses it frequently. Of course some of the armed ones are unjustified (for example, the tragic and imo unjustified Philando Castile shooting counts as armed) and some of the unarmed ones are likely justified. "yet again, another unarmed black man was killed by the police" is the typical refrain and the narrative the protestors are screaming and tweeting.
- gweinberg 6y ago
  It's pretty likely that most cases of voter fraud are never detected. How would they be? It's pretty certain there almost no undetected cases of people being killed by police, at least in this country.

okaram 6y ago

> Trump was fact checked by Twitter a few weeks ago for claiming mail in ballots are linked to voter fraud No, his claim was not that they are linked ... I will not replicate his tweet, but his claim was much much stronger in the tweet. If you are trying to create intelligent arguments, you need to be more careful. If you are just trolling, good job.

tuna-piano 6y ago
I'm not trolling. Upon rereading his tweet, you are correct that I somewhat downplayed his words. My point remains - that the strong words of calling mail in ballot fraud substantially fraudulent and calling police killings of unarmed black men a national epidemic are similar in their over-broadening of small-percentage problems. There were two parts to his tweet- (The part I have issue fact checking) 1. There is NO WAY (ZERO!) that Mail-In Ballots will be anything less than substantially fraudulent. Mail boxes will be robbed, ballots will be forged & even illegally printed out & fraudulently signed. (Part of this seems false - "anyone living in the state") 2. The Governor of California is sending Ballots to millions of people, anyone living in the state, no matter who they are or how they got there, will get one. That will be followed up with professionals telling all of these people, many of whom have never even thought of voting before, how, and for whom, to vote. This will be a Rigged Election. No way! https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1265255835124539392 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/12652558351245393...