4 ms·

We haven't gone from "BLOCK" to "ALLOW". Instead, we're back to "DUNNO". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phases_of_clinical_research https://en.wikipedia.org/wi

We haven't gone from "BLOCK" to "ALLOW". Instead, we're back to "DUNNO". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phases_of_clinical_research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phases_of_clinical_research

bb88 6y ago
So "dunno" is not a good enough reason to allow use of potentially damaging drugs. So we're still at "block".
- xenophonf 6y ago
  Pretty much. Evidence-based medicine doesn't take its cues from Cave Johnson and just spitball stuff when people's lives are at stake. Plenty of promising drugs have horrible side effects, and it takes a lot of careful work to make sure they can be used safely to treat people. Thalidomide would be an excellent example of such a drug, which can cause excessive clotting and severe birth defects but also treats leprosy and certain cancers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide
- tjenkinsqs 6y ago
  I personally do not like drugs, but as far drugs goes Hydroxychloroquine is quite safe. Hydroxychloroquine has been used since 1958 by millions of people. It is relatively safely (as much as any drug is safe) used for Malaria, Lupus and Arthritis. Some Lupus users have used it for decades. The CDC on their web site state it is safe for young, old and pregnant. https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/resources/pdf/fsp/drugs/hydroxychloroquine.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/resources/pdf/fsp/drugs/hydroxyc...
  - giarc 6y ago
    It's safe for people with those conditions, we don't know if it's safe for people in respiratory distress. Take thalidomide for example. Great drug for treating nausea, but not great when that person is also pregnant. By not studying it in this group, it resulted in many people born with birth defects.
  - bb88 6y ago
    First that page shows a maximum daily dosage of 400mg/7 (weekly dosage) in adults. What's being used in covid patients is 800mg/day for the first day [1]. Can you point to any studies that shows the safety of hydroxycholorquine in people with respiratory distress or infection? Can you show any studies that hyrdoxychlorquine is safe when the blood oxygen level drops below certain level often seen in covid patients? Can I point you to here which shows all the potentially dangerous side effects of hydroxychloroquine? [1] https://www.pdr.net/drug-summary/Plaquenil-hydroxychloroquine-sulfate-1911 https://www.pdr.net/drug-summary/Plaquenil-hydroxychloroquin... Interesting aspect is the following: > Hydroxychloroquine prolongs the QT interval. Use hydroxychloroquine with caution in patients with conditions that may increase the risk of QT prolongation including congenital long QT syndrome, bradycardia, AV block, heart failure, stress-related cardiomyopathy, myocardial infarction, stroke, hypomagnesemia, hypokalemia, hypocalcemia, or in patients receiving medications known to prolong the QT interval or cause electrolyte imbalances. Females, geriatric patients, patients with sleep deprivation, pheochromocytoma, sickle cell disease, hypothyroidism, hyperparathyroidism, hypothermia, systemic inflammation (e.g., human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection, fever, and some autoimmune diseases including rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE), and celiac disease) and patients undergoing apheresis procedures (e.g., plasmapheresis [plasma exchange], cytapheresis) may also be at increased risk for QT prolongation.
    - tim333 6y ago
      Covid has been know to cause ill health too. Rather than ban anything with any risk a calculated judgement might be better.
- Noumenon72 6y ago
  So "dunno" is a good enough reason to allow people to suffer from potentially damaging COVID-19? There is a tradeoff whenever you default to "block", especially when there are no other good treatments. You are preventing people from searching the solution space.
  - bb88 6y ago
    A treatment needs to be safe and effective. So far the studies are unclear about the effectiveness, and also unclear about the safety. The retraction of one study doesn't mean it becomes safe or effective overnight. And despite what people are saying, there are some nasty side effects for people with cardiovascular issues. It's worth noting that infants have died with accidental exposure. https://www.pdr.net/drug-summary/Plaquenil-hydroxychloroquine-sulfate-1911 https://www.pdr.net/drug-summary/Plaquenil-hydroxychloroquin...
  - xenophonf 6y ago
    No one’s preventing properly designed and carefully run clinical trialS of COVID-19 treatments using HCQ. What doctors shouldn’t do is administer potentially life threatening drugs to sick patients based on rumor and speculation without any consideration. Such doctors are basically running badly designed, unsanctioned, unsafe experiments on people who’s ability to consent to the experimentation is compromised in any one of a number of ways, like being sedated and on a ventilator. Institutional review boards exist for a reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_review_board https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_review_board

We haven't gone from "BLOCK" to "ALLOW". Instead, we're back to "DUNNO". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phases_of_clinical_research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phases_of_clinical_research

bb88 6y ago

So "dunno" is not a good enough reason to allow use of potentially damaging drugs. So we're still at "block".

xenophonf 6y ago
Pretty much. Evidence-based medicine doesn't take its cues from Cave Johnson and just spitball stuff when people's lives are at stake. Plenty of promising drugs have horrible side effects, and it takes a lot of careful work to make sure they can be used safely to treat people. Thalidomide would be an excellent example of such a drug, which can cause excessive clotting and severe birth defects but also treats leprosy and certain cancers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide
tjenkinsqs 6y ago
I personally do not like drugs, but as far drugs goes Hydroxychloroquine is quite safe. Hydroxychloroquine has been used since 1958 by millions of people. It is relatively safely (as much as any drug is safe) used for Malaria, Lupus and Arthritis. Some Lupus users have used it for decades. The CDC on their web site state it is safe for young, old and pregnant. https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/resources/pdf/fsp/drugs/hydroxychloroquine.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/resources/pdf/fsp/drugs/hydroxyc...
- giarc 6y ago
  It's safe for people with those conditions, we don't know if it's safe for people in respiratory distress. Take thalidomide for example. Great drug for treating nausea, but not great when that person is also pregnant. By not studying it in this group, it resulted in many people born with birth defects.
- bb88 6y ago
  First that page shows a maximum daily dosage of 400mg/7 (weekly dosage) in adults. What's being used in covid patients is 800mg/day for the first day [1]. Can you point to any studies that shows the safety of hydroxycholorquine in people with respiratory distress or infection? Can you show any studies that hyrdoxychlorquine is safe when the blood oxygen level drops below certain level often seen in covid patients? Can I point you to here which shows all the potentially dangerous side effects of hydroxychloroquine? [1] https://www.pdr.net/drug-summary/Plaquenil-hydroxychloroquine-sulfate-1911 https://www.pdr.net/drug-summary/Plaquenil-hydroxychloroquin... Interesting aspect is the following: > Hydroxychloroquine prolongs the QT interval. Use hydroxychloroquine with caution in patients with conditions that may increase the risk of QT prolongation including congenital long QT syndrome, bradycardia, AV block, heart failure, stress-related cardiomyopathy, myocardial infarction, stroke, hypomagnesemia, hypokalemia, hypocalcemia, or in patients receiving medications known to prolong the QT interval or cause electrolyte imbalances. Females, geriatric patients, patients with sleep deprivation, pheochromocytoma, sickle cell disease, hypothyroidism, hyperparathyroidism, hypothermia, systemic inflammation (e.g., human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection, fever, and some autoimmune diseases including rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE), and celiac disease) and patients undergoing apheresis procedures (e.g., plasmapheresis [plasma exchange], cytapheresis) may also be at increased risk for QT prolongation.
  - tim333 6y ago
    Covid has been know to cause ill health too. Rather than ban anything with any risk a calculated judgement might be better.
Noumenon72 6y ago
So "dunno" is a good enough reason to allow people to suffer from potentially damaging COVID-19? There is a tradeoff whenever you default to "block", especially when there are no other good treatments. You are preventing people from searching the solution space.
- bb88 6y ago
  A treatment needs to be safe and effective. So far the studies are unclear about the effectiveness, and also unclear about the safety. The retraction of one study doesn't mean it becomes safe or effective overnight. And despite what people are saying, there are some nasty side effects for people with cardiovascular issues. It's worth noting that infants have died with accidental exposure. https://www.pdr.net/drug-summary/Plaquenil-hydroxychloroquine-sulfate-1911 https://www.pdr.net/drug-summary/Plaquenil-hydroxychloroquin...
- xenophonf 6y ago
  No one’s preventing properly designed and carefully run clinical trialS of COVID-19 treatments using HCQ. What doctors shouldn’t do is administer potentially life threatening drugs to sick patients based on rumor and speculation without any consideration. Such doctors are basically running badly designed, unsanctioned, unsafe experiments on people who’s ability to consent to the experimentation is compromised in any one of a number of ways, like being sedated and on a ventilator. Institutional review boards exist for a reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_review_board https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_review_board