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Problem is, there's always two parties in every transaction. Holiday for the rent payer is a death knell for the landlord. Mortgage holiday is the same for the

Problem is, there's always two parties in every transaction. Holiday for the rent payer is a death knell for the landlord. Mortgage holiday is the same for the bank and its bondholders/depositors.

Pfhreak 6y ago
Is that a problem? Those landlords and banks have collateral -- the properties and mortgages themselves. I care a lot more about housing from a "how well does it house humans" perspective than a "how well does it generate income for landlords/capitalists" perspective. If landlords and mortgage lenders ended up having to sell their assets for pennies on the dollar, I'd imagine it would make housing a lot more affordable to people and spread more evenly.
- chkaloon 6y ago
  And all the pensions and retirement accounts of teachers, firefighters, anyone with a 401k/403b/125 account are the ones propping up those mortgage holders and "capitalists". There is no imaginary backstop here, except the Fed for a little while. Eventually that will crumble as well.
- krapht 6y ago
  The Great Recession was only a decade ago. Of course it's a problem, and we have recent evidence of what happens when you almost let the real estate and banking industries collapse.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  Sometimes people are forced into becoming a landlord. They bought an affordable condo in an affordable city (think 5 digit prices). The market dies and they can't sell. They lose their job. They have to go back to school. So they move in with friends and rent out their place just to cover the mortgage they can't get out of. Bankruptcy would ruin their chance to dig themselves out. I really feel for both renters and small-time landlords. I've been in and/or known people who've been in tough spots on both sides. But I have limited empathy for those who have no empathy.
  - stormbrew 6y ago
    I've been in the position of owning a condo with an underwater mortgage with difficulty finding work. It was fucking awful and it made my life hell for years. When I finally sold it it was for less than 2/3rds the remaining value of the mortgage. I still had more viable options and was in a better place than most people living paycheque to paycheque are if they're renting and their ability to work is interrupted for months. All these situations are not equal, and if your 'empathy' tries to force them all into the same bucket, that's a problem.
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      that's a problem. Especially in times like these, we should be trying to find common ground with one another, not putting up walls and saying "you aren't allowed to think you understand what I feel" or "your problems are insignificant because mine are worse".
      - stormbrew 6y ago
        Recognizing that there are degrees and differences in hardship between people who own property and people who rent is not any of those things.
        nitrogen 6y ago
        We're in a thread where people are talking about just "canceling rent". If the landlord doesn't pay the mortgage, the renter is out (and possibly the landlord too). If the renter doesn't pay rent, the landlord doesn't pay the mortgage, and the renter is out. They're both in a bind. A landlord with a mortgage is not a property owner if the mortgage isn't paid. If they work together as human beings they might find a solution that works with the means of each party, but if they start a hardship contest then they both lose.
        stormbrew 6y ago
        So, I started this particular thread on cancelling rent and I started it with a proposal that both rent and mortgages go on a holiday and a universal income supplement be enacted for the duration of the emergency. This is an arrangement that enables all three of renters, landlords with mortgages, and landlords without mortgages to have a shot at getting through this without bankruptcy. And yet every reply comes in crying about mortgages, which I said right in my first post should have a holiday as well because otherwise there's conflict. There's a knee-jerk reaction of empathy for people holding property that isn't being extended to renters here in this thread. It's showing in where people stop reading and hit the reply button. If you can't read past "rent holiday" to see the next part, you aren't spreading your empathy evenly, let alone fairly (which is not necessarily the same thing).
- leetcrew 6y ago
  what makes you think those houses would end up being bought to live in rather than scooped up en masse by even wealthier (aspiring) landlords with some spare cash? seems like the best case scenario would be a brief period where it's a great time to buy a house, followed by a return to the norm but with different landlords. that's not necessarily worse than what we have now, but I wouldn't expect anything to change long term without adjusting any of the other factors that make housing expensive.
ohyes 6y ago
Exactly, that’s why I suggested suspending capitalism, but in which case what do you replace it with? We could of course just give everyone what they would have made, based on last year’s tax returns or whatever, of course this has its own problems (inequality, inflation, etc.)
toiletfuneral 6y ago
trying to find a problem with 'death knell for the landlord' but I can't
stormbrew 6y ago
And I addressed the two parties in that particular chain that don't have access to the central bank's reserves (rent and mortgage holding landlord). Landlords that don't hold mortgages don't need anywhere near as much assistance. In particular, the conflict I mentioned in the last sentence was directly alluding to the problem of only giving a rent holiday without a mortgage holiday to go with it. It's actually kind of hard to believe you read my really short post in its entirety, because you're arguing quite a strawperson here. For banks or lenders that don't have direct access to the central bank's reserves they will need to sort that out between themselves or possibly with further legislation, but it's a much much easier problem to solve than individual renters going insolvent en masse because their landlord is still demanding rent while they can't leave the house.

Problem is, there's always two parties in every transaction. Holiday for the rent payer is a death knell for the landlord. Mortgage holiday is the same for the bank and its bondholders/depositors.

Pfhreak 6y ago

Is that a problem? Those landlords and banks have collateral -- the properties and mortgages themselves. I care a lot more about housing from a "how well does it house humans" perspective than a "how well does it generate income for landlords/capitalists" perspective. If landlords and mortgage lenders ended up having to sell their assets for pennies on the dollar, I'd imagine it would make housing a lot more affordable to people and spread more evenly.

chkaloon 6y ago
And all the pensions and retirement accounts of teachers, firefighters, anyone with a 401k/403b/125 account are the ones propping up those mortgage holders and "capitalists". There is no imaginary backstop here, except the Fed for a little while. Eventually that will crumble as well.
krapht 6y ago
The Great Recession was only a decade ago. Of course it's a problem, and we have recent evidence of what happens when you almost let the real estate and banking industries collapse.
nitrogen 6y ago
Sometimes people are forced into becoming a landlord. They bought an affordable condo in an affordable city (think 5 digit prices). The market dies and they can't sell. They lose their job. They have to go back to school. So they move in with friends and rent out their place just to cover the mortgage they can't get out of. Bankruptcy would ruin their chance to dig themselves out. I really feel for both renters and small-time landlords. I've been in and/or known people who've been in tough spots on both sides. But I have limited empathy for those who have no empathy.
- stormbrew 6y ago
  I've been in the position of owning a condo with an underwater mortgage with difficulty finding work. It was fucking awful and it made my life hell for years. When I finally sold it it was for less than 2/3rds the remaining value of the mortgage. I still had more viable options and was in a better place than most people living paycheque to paycheque are if they're renting and their ability to work is interrupted for months. All these situations are not equal, and if your 'empathy' tries to force them all into the same bucket, that's a problem.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    that's a problem. Especially in times like these, we should be trying to find common ground with one another, not putting up walls and saying "you aren't allowed to think you understand what I feel" or "your problems are insignificant because mine are worse".
    - stormbrew 6y ago
      Recognizing that there are degrees and differences in hardship between people who own property and people who rent is not any of those things.
      - nitrogen 6y ago
        We're in a thread where people are talking about just "canceling rent". If the landlord doesn't pay the mortgage, the renter is out (and possibly the landlord too). If the renter doesn't pay rent, the landlord doesn't pay the mortgage, and the renter is out. They're both in a bind. A landlord with a mortgage is not a property owner if the mortgage isn't paid. If they work together as human beings they might find a solution that works with the means of each party, but if they start a hardship contest then they both lose.
        stormbrew 6y ago
        So, I started this particular thread on cancelling rent and I started it with a proposal that both rent and mortgages go on a holiday and a universal income supplement be enacted for the duration of the emergency. This is an arrangement that enables all three of renters, landlords with mortgages, and landlords without mortgages to have a shot at getting through this without bankruptcy. And yet every reply comes in crying about mortgages, which I said right in my first post should have a holiday as well because otherwise there's conflict. There's a knee-jerk reaction of empathy for people holding property that isn't being extended to renters here in this thread. It's showing in where people stop reading and hit the reply button. If you can't read past "rent holiday" to see the next part, you aren't spreading your empathy evenly, let alone fairly (which is not necessarily the same thing).
leetcrew 6y ago
what makes you think those houses would end up being bought to live in rather than scooped up en masse by even wealthier (aspiring) landlords with some spare cash? seems like the best case scenario would be a brief period where it's a great time to buy a house, followed by a return to the norm but with different landlords. that's not necessarily worse than what we have now, but I wouldn't expect anything to change long term without adjusting any of the other factors that make housing expensive.

ohyes 6y ago

Exactly, that’s why I suggested suspending capitalism, but in which case what do you replace it with? We could of course just give everyone what they would have made, based on last year’s tax returns or whatever, of course this has its own problems (inequality, inflation, etc.)

toiletfuneral 6y ago

trying to find a problem with 'death knell for the landlord' but I can't

stormbrew 6y ago

And I addressed the two parties in that particular chain that don't have access to the central bank's reserves (rent and mortgage holding landlord). Landlords that don't hold mortgages don't need anywhere near as much assistance. In particular, the conflict I mentioned in the last sentence was directly alluding to the problem of only giving a rent holiday without a mortgage holiday to go with it. It's actually kind of hard to believe you read my really short post in its entirety, because you're arguing quite a strawperson here. For banks or lenders that don't have direct access to the central bank's reserves they will need to sort that out between themselves or possibly with further legislation, but it's a much much easier problem to solve than individual renters going insolvent en masse because their landlord is still demanding rent while they can't leave the house.