4 ms·

An idle wonder: one non-criticism of Clojure (and lisps in general) is "the parens." Anyone who's used Clojure finds that a) this is totally handled by the ed

An idle wonder: one non-criticism of Clojure (and lisps in general) is "the parens." Anyone who's used Clojure finds that a) this is totally handled by the editor, and b) the parens are actually an advantage, because all language structures are the same, which means the same hotkeys, etc, can be used universally. Now the reason I mention this is: I "hate" static types. But then again, the only place I've actually used them was when writing Java in plugin-less Vim in college ten years ago. Am I the outsider who just got a bad taste because I was lacking proper editor/IDE support?

andrewflnr 6y ago
You got a bad taste because Java tastes bad. :) Almost any other statically typed language will be more pleasant than Java. Java barely counts at all, in my biased opinion, because null references are so pervasive. OCaml is a better intro (or if you're into the new hotness, Rust). But yes, tooling helps too.
millimeterman 6y ago
I'd actually point the finger at Java itself, though I imagine the editor didn't help. Java's type system is (IMO) about as cumbersome and unhelpful as they come. A good type system should be minimally obtrusive while preventing lots of programming errors (both when writing code and, perhaps more importantly, during maintenance by a different person a year down the line). For languages with good type systems, I'd recommend something like OCaml (or maybe F# - I know it's very similar and probably has a better ecosystem but I haven't personally used it). Elm also seems decent - it's designed to be pretty simple and has JS interop but it doesn't have good tooling. Typescript is an alternative that has an okay type system but pretty quality tooling. I'd recommend staying away from Haskell even though it's commonly recommended. The type system is quite complex and its use of monadic I/O makes writing "real" programs, even toy ones, difficult for many people. If you want to learn Haskell, I'd say start with OCaml/F#/Elm. Those are all very similar and will let you learn the fundamentals of ML-style programming before diving into Haskell-specific details.
- _bxg1 6y ago
  I would also add that type inference is one of the biggest differentiators when it comes to developer experience. When you have to manually type every single thing, even local variables, it's easy for the system to hinder more than it helps. Whereas in TypeScript you're free to omit return types whenever you want them to be driven by the internal code, or specify them when you want to establish a stronger contract. The same goes for local variables. You can even call generic functions without parameterizing the generic type if it can be inferred from the arguments.
wtetzner 6y ago
I would say it's more that your experience is with Java. With Java, proper IDE support is pretty important, but mostly just because it's so verbose and clunky. If you try something like OCaml, you really don't need any special editor support (though it's still nice if you have it).

andrewflnr 6y ago

You got a bad taste because Java tastes bad. :) Almost any other statically typed language will be more pleasant than Java. Java barely counts at all, in my biased opinion, because null references are so pervasive. OCaml is a better intro (or if you're into the new hotness, Rust). But yes, tooling helps too.

millimeterman 6y ago

I'd actually point the finger at Java itself, though I imagine the editor didn't help. Java's type system is (IMO) about as cumbersome and unhelpful as they come. A good type system should be minimally obtrusive while preventing lots of programming errors (both when writing code and, perhaps more importantly, during maintenance by a different person a year down the line). For languages with good type systems, I'd recommend something like OCaml (or maybe F# - I know it's very similar and probably has a better ecosystem but I haven't personally used it). Elm also seems decent - it's designed to be pretty simple and has JS interop but it doesn't have good tooling. Typescript is an alternative that has an okay type system but pretty quality tooling. I'd recommend staying away from Haskell even though it's commonly recommended. The type system is quite complex and its use of monadic I/O makes writing "real" programs, even toy ones, difficult for many people. If you want to learn Haskell, I'd say start with OCaml/F#/Elm. Those are all very similar and will let you learn the fundamentals of ML-style programming before diving into Haskell-specific details.

_bxg1 6y ago
I would also add that type inference is one of the biggest differentiators when it comes to developer experience. When you have to manually type every single thing, even local variables, it's easy for the system to hinder more than it helps. Whereas in TypeScript you're free to omit return types whenever you want them to be driven by the internal code, or specify them when you want to establish a stronger contract. The same goes for local variables. You can even call generic functions without parameterizing the generic type if it can be inferred from the arguments.

wtetzner 6y ago

I would say it's more that your experience is with Java. With Java, proper IDE support is pretty important, but mostly just because it's so verbose and clunky. If you try something like OCaml, you really don't need any special editor support (though it's still nice if you have it).