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Software engineering is more than just software development. Writing requirements, drafting documentation, testing, verification, maintenance. I hate to be hyp

Software engineering is more than just software development. Writing requirements, drafting documentation, testing, verification, maintenance. I hate to be hypercritical, but five weeks of javascript doesn’t make you a software engineer.

quonn 6y ago
Absolutely. Why would software engineering be any different from any other skill? Teach yourself programming in 10 years ... https://norvig.com/21-days.html https://norvig.com/21-days.html
songzme 6y ago
Exactly. Which is why c0d3.com emphasizes understanding users and working together as a team. All code contributions are code reviewed and there is code coverage: https://github.com/garageScript/c0d3-app/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed https://github.com/garageScript/c0d3-app/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%...
- thomspoon 6y ago
  Let me be a little more explicit, software engineering is more than code. Software developers live, breathe, and puke software development. Software engineers, usually accredited, are systems engineers as well as software developers. Software engineering is a relatively new field and segregates from computer science in the sense that software engineers typically are involved in interface design (electronic and software), architecture, documentation, and various other aspects of typical engineering. I feel like I’m being an ass but I find the use of the term “Software Engineer” in this case is erroneous. In the same way you wouldn’t consider someone who tinkers with an arduino an electrical engineer, I don’t think we can consider someone who knows full-Stack web development a software engineer.
  - songzme 6y ago
    > software engineering is more than code. Software developers live, breathe, and puke software development. 100% agree. Which is why its important that students are working together on projects so they can write specs, documentation, tests and structure code in a way that the next engineer can take over easily. Our weekly sprint planning helps facilitate that. Take this PR for example, it has tests and went through 15+ comments and approved by 2 other students before it got merged in: https://github.com/garageScript/c0d3-app/pull/243 https://github.com/garageScript/c0d3-app/pull/243 I think your are thinking of a curriculum that just teaches students how to code and then have them build side projects by themselves and show it off. And I agree, that is not software engineering, it is just code.
jbreckmckye 6y ago
I'm struggling to add this all up. On the one hand, I have some evidence that my job is hard: I have spent ten years learning to be proficient at it, still know only a narrow slice of it, and find it challenging every day. I have a solid degree from a world-renowned university, so I know I am not stupid. I also interview candidates, and know that many applicants simply cannot do the job. But on the other hand, there is such a sheer volume of resources like this, which imply very clearly that becoming a programmer is a trivial thing. So many in fact that I am starting to doubt the evidence of my eyes and ears. So which is it? Is there a weird drive to constantly undersell our skills, a knowing wink to the managers who have always secretly suspected us of being nothing more than glorified typists? Or are the bootcamps right, and I've spent a decade learning replaceable trivia? And why is making statement #2 seen as positive and inclusive?
- cosmodisk 6y ago
  There's space for everybody. I do programming ( not full time) at work: usually it's simple queries against the database and business logic around the returned collection. Sometimes it's a bit more complicated and then I have to do an integration with an external system. Would I be able to write some traffic optimization algorithm for Netflix? Not a chance. Would I be able to help an average SMB by automating some of their processes? Absolutely. Someone is sitting in a fancy office on the 50th floor in Manhattan writing some heavily optimized code for a bank making $1M/year, while some other is doing simple PHP plugins for WordPress in some sweatshop. Both are called programmers. Same with bankers: one you meet at your local bank branch who doesn't even know what nostro account is, while other is doing some M&A trying to pull billion dollar companies together. It doesn't matter how many schools, bootcamps,or even leet universities will open,the fact that probably less than 0.01% of general population could barely become mediocre developers won't change any time soon.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  > But on the other hand, there is such a sheer volume of resources like this, which imply very clearly that becoming a programmer is a trivial thing. It takes a few weeks to get to the first level. None of the people coming out of these bootcamps are building secure software at scale. Imagine if you wanted to become a house builder. Coding bootcamps teach you to build a doghouse, which is easy to learn within a few weeks. People will pay for doghouses, so you may as well start there. Over time, you build sheds, barns, and then move on to homes.

quonn 6y ago

Absolutely. Why would software engineering be any different from any other skill? Teach yourself programming in 10 years ... https://norvig.com/21-days.html https://norvig.com/21-days.html

songzme 6y ago

Exactly. Which is why c0d3.com emphasizes understanding users and working together as a team. All code contributions are code reviewed and there is code coverage: https://github.com/garageScript/c0d3-app/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed https://github.com/garageScript/c0d3-app/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%...

thomspoon 6y ago
Let me be a little more explicit, software engineering is more than code. Software developers live, breathe, and puke software development. Software engineers, usually accredited, are systems engineers as well as software developers. Software engineering is a relatively new field and segregates from computer science in the sense that software engineers typically are involved in interface design (electronic and software), architecture, documentation, and various other aspects of typical engineering. I feel like I’m being an ass but I find the use of the term “Software Engineer” in this case is erroneous. In the same way you wouldn’t consider someone who tinkers with an arduino an electrical engineer, I don’t think we can consider someone who knows full-Stack web development a software engineer.
- songzme 6y ago
  > software engineering is more than code. Software developers live, breathe, and puke software development. 100% agree. Which is why its important that students are working together on projects so they can write specs, documentation, tests and structure code in a way that the next engineer can take over easily. Our weekly sprint planning helps facilitate that. Take this PR for example, it has tests and went through 15+ comments and approved by 2 other students before it got merged in: https://github.com/garageScript/c0d3-app/pull/243 https://github.com/garageScript/c0d3-app/pull/243 I think your are thinking of a curriculum that just teaches students how to code and then have them build side projects by themselves and show it off. And I agree, that is not software engineering, it is just code.

jbreckmckye 6y ago

I'm struggling to add this all up. On the one hand, I have some evidence that my job is hard: I have spent ten years learning to be proficient at it, still know only a narrow slice of it, and find it challenging every day. I have a solid degree from a world-renowned university, so I know I am not stupid. I also interview candidates, and know that many applicants simply cannot do the job. But on the other hand, there is such a sheer volume of resources like this, which imply very clearly that becoming a programmer is a trivial thing. So many in fact that I am starting to doubt the evidence of my eyes and ears. So which is it? Is there a weird drive to constantly undersell our skills, a knowing wink to the managers who have always secretly suspected us of being nothing more than glorified typists? Or are the bootcamps right, and I've spent a decade learning replaceable trivia? And why is making statement #2 seen as positive and inclusive?

cosmodisk 6y ago
There's space for everybody. I do programming ( not full time) at work: usually it's simple queries against the database and business logic around the returned collection. Sometimes it's a bit more complicated and then I have to do an integration with an external system. Would I be able to write some traffic optimization algorithm for Netflix? Not a chance. Would I be able to help an average SMB by automating some of their processes? Absolutely. Someone is sitting in a fancy office on the 50th floor in Manhattan writing some heavily optimized code for a bank making $1M/year, while some other is doing simple PHP plugins for WordPress in some sweatshop. Both are called programmers. Same with bankers: one you meet at your local bank branch who doesn't even know what nostro account is, while other is doing some M&A trying to pull billion dollar companies together. It doesn't matter how many schools, bootcamps,or even leet universities will open,the fact that probably less than 0.01% of general population could barely become mediocre developers won't change any time soon.
MattGaiser 6y ago
> But on the other hand, there is such a sheer volume of resources like this, which imply very clearly that becoming a programmer is a trivial thing. It takes a few weeks to get to the first level. None of the people coming out of these bootcamps are building secure software at scale. Imagine if you wanted to become a house builder. Coding bootcamps teach you to build a doghouse, which is easy to learn within a few weeks. People will pay for doghouses, so you may as well start there. Over time, you build sheds, barns, and then move on to homes.