6 ms·

A new factor in an uneasy moment: Unidentified law enforcement officers

69 points by laurex 6y ago

jonny_eh 6y ago
I can't access the site because I don't have a subscription, but the headline brings to mind a thought I've had recently that cops should be required to have a big identifiable number on their front and back, like a football or hockey player.
- sbarre 6y ago
  Typically police riot helmets have exactly that (a big number) on the back of them so they can identify each other in the chaos. It has since come out that these are Bureau of Prisons employees, and the head of the BOP said this was "not intentional" and that the "point was taken" about the problem of them being unidentified. Whether through malice or incompetence, it's still kinda bullshit tho.
  - ChristianBundy 6y ago
    > "not intentional" I'm guessing that this means "this is how we've always done it but we've never faced accountability before". The BOP was founded in 1930, I wonder how long they've been pulling this 'no name, no badge' thing under the radar.
    - ahi 6y ago
      In fairness, they have no business being deployed outside of a prison anyway. Their lack of uniforms reflect their lack of training and jurisdiction for the task assigned. They might as well be Capitol hill cafeteria workers. The only additional qualification the BoP has is their experience cracking heads.
    - freeone3000 6y ago
      Almost certainly since inception. They operate solely in prisons, as muscle, so any abuse charges are going to fall on deaf ears even if identified fully.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > Typically police riot helmets have exactly that (a big number) on the back of them so they can identify each other in the chaos. That's far from universal. I did some googling: Helmet number: * DC Police: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/after-night-significant-damage-d-c-mayor-bowser-imposes-earlier-n1221126 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/after-night-s... * San Francisco police: https://warriorpublications.wordpress.com/2012/10/07/san-francisco-report-from-anti-columbus-march-1062012/ https://warriorpublications.wordpress.com/2012/10/07/san-fra... * Denver Police: https://www.denverpost.com/2016/07/14/poll-riot-gear-for-police-at-protests/ https://www.denverpost.com/2016/07/14/poll-riot-gear-for-pol... No number: * Boston Police/MA State Police: https://psmag.com/social-justice/policing-a-class-society https://psmag.com/social-justice/policing-a-class-society * Minnesota State Patrol: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/minneapolis-riots-ferguson-1.5590678 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/minneapolis-riots-ferguson-1.5... * Chicago Police: https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/chicago-police-officers-in-full-riot-gear-stand-guard-news-photo/1861464 https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/chicago-police... One issue I have is that even when there are ID numbers on the uniforms, they're too small. The only ones above that I thought were adequately large were on the San Francisco police uniforms. The number should be large enough to be read off an active/moving officer's uniform from a photograph taken some distance away (like 30-50 feet).
smrq 6y ago
Sans paywall: https://outline.com/SCKWwz https://outline.com/SCKWwz
- californical 6y ago
  Can citizens buy riot shields? What's stopping a group of people from doing exactly this just to cause an issue? Are we even 100% sure that they are any form of law enforcement? I hope someone walks un-aggressively right past their line and refuses to acknowledge them as police if they don't identify as such.
  - s5300 6y ago
    Your second stance is a great way to get tackled. Whether or not you have somebody with you willing to defend you, which simultaneously forfeits their life, is the important thing. Turns out, people don't seem to be so willing to give their life for democracy. Unfortunate, because that's how it's forever snuffed.
  - mwfunk 6y ago
    Apparently the police are OK with any protestors doing basically anything if they've all got AR-15s and burning or lynching effigies of politicians they disagree with, because apparently that's how adults handle disagreements in civil societies. That would be another way to render themselves invisible to the police, based on the last 50 years or so of anecdotal evidence. I may be missing some critical elements though, like Confederate flags or swastikas or blatantly threatening behavior or obvious symptoms of fetal alcohol syndrome. It sure is odd, the sorts of things that put American cops at ease. Really odd.
  - klyrs 6y ago
    > Can citizens buy riot shields? Materials supply is scarce right now due to covid -- all the plastic sheeting gone to face masks, barriers in grocery stores, etc. http://www.yeoldegaffers.com/project_shieldpress.asp http://www.yeoldegaffers.com/project_shieldpress.asp
- totetsu 6y ago
alanpage 6y ago
In the U.S. where I am, officers have a "badge number", literally on their metallic badge affixed to their uniform. These are hard enough to read during a non-confrontational exchange, but become useless in a fast moving, chaotic situation, which we're seeing a lot during this time. It would make sense to have these badge numbers in larger characters on the front and/or back of the uniform, whether they are in riot gear or just their day-to-day uniform.
- fish_phrenology 6y ago
  The Seattle Police Department has both their badge numbers, as well as name tags. As you said, neither is particularly easy to read in the best of circumstances. Of course it’s made even more difficult by the officers covering the badge numbers (and in less frequent cases, their name tags) with tape. I’ve seen both in person during the last week. The official explanation for covering badge numbers is weak, and the mayor’s response to protestor requests that badges are left uncovered was even weaker. Of course this pales in comparison to the turning-off body cam before attacking policy.
  - kayfox 6y ago
    This is further a problem because Seattle has at least one current badge design the puts the number in the middle of the badge. Many other agencies avoid this as they either have a traditional badge with large numbers at the bottom like many NYPD badges, or they understand that mourning bands are a thing and avoid placing the badge number where the band may cover up. As a forward looking policy, agencies should generally prohibit obscuring the agency and officer identification for uniformed officers and design those things to enhance their readability and prevent common practices like mourning bands from obscuring them. As for the body camera policy, Seattle has a history of using video surveillance during protests to identify protesters for later prosecution, in particular this happened during the WTO protests and Iraq War protests. A common call from protesters has been that journalists and photographers documenting the protest avoid publishing clear photos that would allow the police and other parties the ability to identify protesters, so there are conflicting calls on that particular policy. I think the long term solution to that is a legal disincentive for police departments to prosecute protesters and a trust in the police and judiciary that they can take such recordings and use them for accountability rather than prosecutions.
protomyth 6y ago
The United States has so many different kinds of law enforcement officers that is amazing anyone can keep it straight. Hell, USDA has officers. Many will be called to deal with things that aren't exactly their normal area when needed. Loaned to other departments, I think it is called. Live on a reservation for a while and see at least three different groups of basic law enforcement, never mind when it gets bad and they get help from other agencies. Heck, wait until they pull the kill all cellphones and internet connections in an area so they can do an interagency drug bust. That screwed with our remote class something fierce. Using black helicopters was just asinine. Thanks for riling up the conspiracy idiots.
- 1propionyl 6y ago
  I see you haven't updated your registry of asinine conspiracy theory lately... The conspiracy idiots think the black helicopters are on their side and are waiting for "the storm", where the executive sweeps in and arrests all of the members of a secret global pedophile ring. Conveniently they tend to believe that ring includes any and all politicians that they don't agree with (most of the Republican Party, all of the Democratic Party), professors, medical experts, more or less the entire population of San Francisco, etc. Oh! Almost forgot: also Jews. They're essentially all in on some form of bloody coup and/or purge, but euphemize/rationalize it as a heroic liberation from unseen oppressors (hmm... where have I heard this before...). "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
  - growlist 6y ago
    'The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist'
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
itronitron 6y ago
I think protestors should adopt a uniform of wearing a high-visibility vest and hard hat because they are supposed to be there and are just doing safety checks.
- Communitivity 6y ago
  Actually, a maximally confusing thought (and illegal if they did it) would be for all the protesters to show up in high quality police uniforms. Though things like piercings, tats, and hair styles would be giveaways that some of them weren't cops. The police would throw everything could at them if they did that though.
  - downerending 6y ago
    Probably illegal. And certainly a good way to get your ass kicked by protesters (and the police).
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      It is illegal. In California, it’s covered under Penal Code §538d[0]. In short, it’s not illegal to wear a police uniform, but doing so with the intent to deceive anyone (actual officers included) is illegal. [0]: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN&sectionNum=538d https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...
- joelkevinjones 6y ago
  Don't forget the clipboard.
xkcd-sucks 6y ago
Also, let's not forget that the deadliest spree killing in Canada was perpetrated by a guy wearing a picture-perfect RCMP uniform. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Nova_Scotia_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Nova_Scotia_attacks
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
charles_f 6y ago
Would that disqualify any form of resistance arrest charge, since you can't tell they're cops and not random people assaulting you?
nonick 6y ago
That is exactly what happened in Romania on August 10, 2018, when a peaceful protest was met with tear gas and Police violence, while law enforcement covered the ID numbers on their helmets. https://www.digi24.ro/stiri/actualitate/jandarmi-cu-indicativul-de-pe-casca-ascuns-cu-banda-izolatoare-la-protestul-din-10-august-982244 https://www.digi24.ro/stiri/actualitate/jandarmi-cu-indicati... (in Romanian, but pictures tell the story)

69 points by laurex 6y ago

I can't access the site because I don't have a subscription, but the headline brings to mind a thought I've had recently that cops should be required to have a big identifiable number on their front and back, like a football or hockey player.

sbarre 6y ago
Typically police riot helmets have exactly that (a big number) on the back of them so they can identify each other in the chaos. It has since come out that these are Bureau of Prisons employees, and the head of the BOP said this was "not intentional" and that the "point was taken" about the problem of them being unidentified. Whether through malice or incompetence, it's still kinda bullshit tho.
- ChristianBundy 6y ago
  > "not intentional" I'm guessing that this means "this is how we've always done it but we've never faced accountability before". The BOP was founded in 1930, I wonder how long they've been pulling this 'no name, no badge' thing under the radar.
  - ahi 6y ago
    In fairness, they have no business being deployed outside of a prison anyway. Their lack of uniforms reflect their lack of training and jurisdiction for the task assigned. They might as well be Capitol hill cafeteria workers. The only additional qualification the BoP has is their experience cracking heads.
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    Almost certainly since inception. They operate solely in prisons, as muscle, so any abuse charges are going to fall on deaf ears even if identified fully.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > Typically police riot helmets have exactly that (a big number) on the back of them so they can identify each other in the chaos. That's far from universal. I did some googling: Helmet number: * DC Police: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/after-night-significant-damage-d-c-mayor-bowser-imposes-earlier-n1221126 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/after-night-s... * San Francisco police: https://warriorpublications.wordpress.com/2012/10/07/san-francisco-report-from-anti-columbus-march-1062012/ https://warriorpublications.wordpress.com/2012/10/07/san-fra... * Denver Police: https://www.denverpost.com/2016/07/14/poll-riot-gear-for-police-at-protests/ https://www.denverpost.com/2016/07/14/poll-riot-gear-for-pol... No number: * Boston Police/MA State Police: https://psmag.com/social-justice/policing-a-class-society https://psmag.com/social-justice/policing-a-class-society * Minnesota State Patrol: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/minneapolis-riots-ferguson-1.5590678 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/minneapolis-riots-ferguson-1.5... * Chicago Police: https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/chicago-police-officers-in-full-riot-gear-stand-guard-news-photo/1861464 https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/chicago-police... One issue I have is that even when there are ID numbers on the uniforms, they're too small. The only ones above that I thought were adequately large were on the San Francisco police uniforms. The number should be large enough to be read off an active/moving officer's uniform from a photograph taken some distance away (like 30-50 feet).

smrq 6y ago

Sans paywall: https://outline.com/SCKWwz https://outline.com/SCKWwz

californical 6y ago
Can citizens buy riot shields? What's stopping a group of people from doing exactly this just to cause an issue? Are we even 100% sure that they are any form of law enforcement? I hope someone walks un-aggressively right past their line and refuses to acknowledge them as police if they don't identify as such.
- s5300 6y ago
  Your second stance is a great way to get tackled. Whether or not you have somebody with you willing to defend you, which simultaneously forfeits their life, is the important thing. Turns out, people don't seem to be so willing to give their life for democracy. Unfortunate, because that's how it's forever snuffed.
- mwfunk 6y ago
  Apparently the police are OK with any protestors doing basically anything if they've all got AR-15s and burning or lynching effigies of politicians they disagree with, because apparently that's how adults handle disagreements in civil societies. That would be another way to render themselves invisible to the police, based on the last 50 years or so of anecdotal evidence. I may be missing some critical elements though, like Confederate flags or swastikas or blatantly threatening behavior or obvious symptoms of fetal alcohol syndrome. It sure is odd, the sorts of things that put American cops at ease. Really odd.
- klyrs 6y ago
  > Can citizens buy riot shields? Materials supply is scarce right now due to covid -- all the plastic sheeting gone to face masks, barriers in grocery stores, etc. http://www.yeoldegaffers.com/project_shieldpress.asp http://www.yeoldegaffers.com/project_shieldpress.asp
totetsu 6y ago

alanpage 6y ago

In the U.S. where I am, officers have a "badge number", literally on their metallic badge affixed to their uniform. These are hard enough to read during a non-confrontational exchange, but become useless in a fast moving, chaotic situation, which we're seeing a lot during this time. It would make sense to have these badge numbers in larger characters on the front and/or back of the uniform, whether they are in riot gear or just their day-to-day uniform.

fish_phrenology 6y ago
The Seattle Police Department has both their badge numbers, as well as name tags. As you said, neither is particularly easy to read in the best of circumstances. Of course it’s made even more difficult by the officers covering the badge numbers (and in less frequent cases, their name tags) with tape. I’ve seen both in person during the last week. The official explanation for covering badge numbers is weak, and the mayor’s response to protestor requests that badges are left uncovered was even weaker. Of course this pales in comparison to the turning-off body cam before attacking policy.
- kayfox 6y ago
  This is further a problem because Seattle has at least one current badge design the puts the number in the middle of the badge. Many other agencies avoid this as they either have a traditional badge with large numbers at the bottom like many NYPD badges, or they understand that mourning bands are a thing and avoid placing the badge number where the band may cover up. As a forward looking policy, agencies should generally prohibit obscuring the agency and officer identification for uniformed officers and design those things to enhance their readability and prevent common practices like mourning bands from obscuring them. As for the body camera policy, Seattle has a history of using video surveillance during protests to identify protesters for later prosecution, in particular this happened during the WTO protests and Iraq War protests. A common call from protesters has been that journalists and photographers documenting the protest avoid publishing clear photos that would allow the police and other parties the ability to identify protesters, so there are conflicting calls on that particular policy. I think the long term solution to that is a legal disincentive for police departments to prosecute protesters and a trust in the police and judiciary that they can take such recordings and use them for accountability rather than prosecutions.

protomyth 6y ago

The United States has so many different kinds of law enforcement officers that is amazing anyone can keep it straight. Hell, USDA has officers. Many will be called to deal with things that aren't exactly their normal area when needed. Loaned to other departments, I think it is called. Live on a reservation for a while and see at least three different groups of basic law enforcement, never mind when it gets bad and they get help from other agencies. Heck, wait until they pull the kill all cellphones and internet connections in an area so they can do an interagency drug bust. That screwed with our remote class something fierce. Using black helicopters was just asinine. Thanks for riling up the conspiracy idiots.

1propionyl 6y ago
I see you haven't updated your registry of asinine conspiracy theory lately... The conspiracy idiots think the black helicopters are on their side and are waiting for "the storm", where the executive sweeps in and arrests all of the members of a secret global pedophile ring. Conveniently they tend to believe that ring includes any and all politicians that they don't agree with (most of the Republican Party, all of the Democratic Party), professors, medical experts, more or less the entire population of San Francisco, etc. Oh! Almost forgot: also Jews. They're essentially all in on some form of bloody coup and/or purge, but euphemize/rationalize it as a heroic liberation from unseen oppressors (hmm... where have I heard this before...). "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
- growlist 6y ago
  'The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist'

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

itronitron 6y ago

I think protestors should adopt a uniform of wearing a high-visibility vest and hard hat because they are supposed to be there and are just doing safety checks.

Communitivity 6y ago
Actually, a maximally confusing thought (and illegal if they did it) would be for all the protesters to show up in high quality police uniforms. Though things like piercings, tats, and hair styles would be giveaways that some of them weren't cops. The police would throw everything could at them if they did that though.
- downerending 6y ago
  Probably illegal. And certainly a good way to get your ass kicked by protesters (and the police).
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    It is illegal. In California, it’s covered under Penal Code §538d[0]. In short, it’s not illegal to wear a police uniform, but doing so with the intent to deceive anyone (actual officers included) is illegal. [0]: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN&sectionNum=538d https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...
joelkevinjones 6y ago
Don't forget the clipboard.

xkcd-sucks 6y ago

Also, let's not forget that the deadliest spree killing in Canada was perpetrated by a guy wearing a picture-perfect RCMP uniform. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Nova_Scotia_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Nova_Scotia_attacks

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

charles_f 6y ago

Would that disqualify any form of resistance arrest charge, since you can't tell they're cops and not random people assaulting you?

nonick 6y ago

That is exactly what happened in Romania on August 10, 2018, when a peaceful protest was met with tear gas and Police violence, while law enforcement covered the ID numbers on their helmets. https://www.digi24.ro/stiri/actualitate/jandarmi-cu-indicativul-de-pe-casca-ascuns-cu-banda-izolatoare-la-protestul-din-10-august-982244 https://www.digi24.ro/stiri/actualitate/jandarmi-cu-indicati... (in Romanian, but pictures tell the story)