5 ms·

Currently you can bring your own picture which makes it possible to do certain modifications beforehand.

ceejayoz 6y ago
Possible, yes. Permitted, no. The "photographer submits via a secure form" approach detailed in the article leaves this loophole pretty open, too, unless the photographers have to go through some kinds of security clearance vetting to get access.
- the_mitsuhiko 6y ago
  > unless the photographers have to go through some kinds of security clearance vetting to get access. Passport picture photographers will need a license in Germany.
- mtnGoat 6y ago
  The blackmarket is very much alive and well in Germany, allowing photographers to verify anything is silly, they can be bribed. :x In fact when I lived in Austria, within a couple months I had access to more black market goods/services then I did after growing up in the US for 25 years. I would imagine Germany is the same.
  - possiblelion 6y ago
    What do you mean by this? What kind of black market goods did you have access to?
    - fluffything 6y ago
      Given location and user name, probably milk.
      - ilammy 6y ago
        Seem sketchy, given > after growing up in the US for 25 years and the average lifespan of the species being 12-15 years.
    - oh_sigh 6y ago
      I don't know about Austria bit there is a healthy market in Sweden for anything which is heavily taxed - mainly alcohol, cigarettes.
    - mattr47 6y ago
      Alcohol and cigarettes are always on the black market close to US military bases. Prices are always cheaper for service members and their family on base.
    - xwdv 6y ago
      Databases of credit card numbers on USB sticks, etc
  - Spivak 6y ago
    The point isn't that they can be bribed, it's that the photographer has to attach their name to the photo and certify that it hasn't been altered or tampered with. It adds the ability to go after the photographer if they gov't ever discovers tampering has been done.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
      New business model. Pop-up photoshop. Like the countless other businesses popping up, operating for a few months, washing money, closing down, owners gone, employees unknown, and so on.
      - verst 6y ago
        Except it takes a while to start a business in Germany and there is lots of paperwork involved. Also it sounds like licensing is required to be able to take passport photos. Chances are that licensing might apply to both the business and the individual photographer.
    - verst 6y ago
      This is also where it is important to point out German culture. Germans are extremely law abiding and rule following. People are also generally worried breaking social norms. So while it is technically possible for photographers to digitally alter photos before upload, there will be very few who would dare to do that. Photographers rely on the revenue from passport photos for their businesses to survive. Initially the plan was to exclude professional photographers too but the government backtracked on that after outcry.
  - wolco 6y ago
    The blackmarket is obviously bigger outside of the US where US law and enforcement will be encouraged to go after blackmarkets more strongly than another company.
- usrusr 6y ago
  Not really: a paper trail and a process that requires the photographer to be knowingly and provably complicit would already create a pretty high barrier. Not an insurmountably high barrier, but no amount of vetting could.
- eulenteufel 6y ago
  When I got my first drivers license (Germany) the photographer actually digitally removed some moles from my face and did other editing to make the picture appear more good looking. I was a bit baffled as the picture is supposed to identify me but didn't say anything. Since then I always take ID-pictures in a photo booth. It really doesn't need a professional to take an acceptable picture. I could imagine a photo booth outputting a digital copy of the picture with signature so it is clear to the registration office that the picture has not been meddled with.
  - dspig 6y ago
    Or that the photograph of the large photograph the booth took a picture of has not been meddled with.
- ibejoeb 6y ago
  Is there some sort of camera fingerprinting technology out there, then, that distinguishes between processing done on the camera vs. post-processing in software? If not, how are we even going to tell, short of having signed files coming off the chip?
Hamuko 6y ago
Makes it possible or makes it legal?
- adambyrtek 6y ago
  We developers sometimes struggle with the distinction. The point of laws and regulations is usually not to make fraud technically impossible, but increase the cost and/or risk of getting caught. People still use locks on doors even though they are easy to pick.
fit2rule 6y ago
I could use some CGAN scripts to make a picture of me, which - to your eyes and mine, looks like me - but nevertheless does not have my official physical metrics, and thus I could pre-dispose future AI against recognizing me. I could. But, I won't any more, because Germany will make life a hassle for me.
- HPsquared 6y ago
  We already have face recognition AI using passport photos by the UK border control. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPassport_gates https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPassport_gates
- dzhiurgis 6y ago
  I've tried one of these scripts. They were pretty poor. The best one was Zuck's profile pic which already looks like deep fake...

Possible, yes. Permitted, no. The "photographer submits via a secure form" approach detailed in the article leaves this loophole pretty open, too, unless the photographers have to go through some kinds of security clearance vetting to get access.

the_mitsuhiko 6y ago
> unless the photographers have to go through some kinds of security clearance vetting to get access. Passport picture photographers will need a license in Germany.
mtnGoat 6y ago
The blackmarket is very much alive and well in Germany, allowing photographers to verify anything is silly, they can be bribed. :x In fact when I lived in Austria, within a couple months I had access to more black market goods/services then I did after growing up in the US for 25 years. I would imagine Germany is the same.
- possiblelion 6y ago
  What do you mean by this? What kind of black market goods did you have access to?
  - fluffything 6y ago
    Given location and user name, probably milk.
    - ilammy 6y ago
      Seem sketchy, given > after growing up in the US for 25 years and the average lifespan of the species being 12-15 years.
  - oh_sigh 6y ago
    I don't know about Austria bit there is a healthy market in Sweden for anything which is heavily taxed - mainly alcohol, cigarettes.
  - mattr47 6y ago
    Alcohol and cigarettes are always on the black market close to US military bases. Prices are always cheaper for service members and their family on base.
  - xwdv 6y ago
    Databases of credit card numbers on USB sticks, etc
- Spivak 6y ago
  The point isn't that they can be bribed, it's that the photographer has to attach their name to the photo and certify that it hasn't been altered or tampered with. It adds the ability to go after the photographer if they gov't ever discovers tampering has been done.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
    New business model. Pop-up photoshop. Like the countless other businesses popping up, operating for a few months, washing money, closing down, owners gone, employees unknown, and so on.
    - verst 6y ago
      Except it takes a while to start a business in Germany and there is lots of paperwork involved. Also it sounds like licensing is required to be able to take passport photos. Chances are that licensing might apply to both the business and the individual photographer.
  - verst 6y ago
    This is also where it is important to point out German culture. Germans are extremely law abiding and rule following. People are also generally worried breaking social norms. So while it is technically possible for photographers to digitally alter photos before upload, there will be very few who would dare to do that. Photographers rely on the revenue from passport photos for their businesses to survive. Initially the plan was to exclude professional photographers too but the government backtracked on that after outcry.
- wolco 6y ago
  The blackmarket is obviously bigger outside of the US where US law and enforcement will be encouraged to go after blackmarkets more strongly than another company.
usrusr 6y ago
Not really: a paper trail and a process that requires the photographer to be knowingly and provably complicit would already create a pretty high barrier. Not an insurmountably high barrier, but no amount of vetting could.
eulenteufel 6y ago
When I got my first drivers license (Germany) the photographer actually digitally removed some moles from my face and did other editing to make the picture appear more good looking. I was a bit baffled as the picture is supposed to identify me but didn't say anything. Since then I always take ID-pictures in a photo booth. It really doesn't need a professional to take an acceptable picture. I could imagine a photo booth outputting a digital copy of the picture with signature so it is clear to the registration office that the picture has not been meddled with.
- dspig 6y ago
  Or that the photograph of the large photograph the booth took a picture of has not been meddled with.
ibejoeb 6y ago
Is there some sort of camera fingerprinting technology out there, then, that distinguishes between processing done on the camera vs. post-processing in software? If not, how are we even going to tell, short of having signed files coming off the chip?

Hamuko 6y ago

Makes it possible or makes it legal?

adambyrtek 6y ago
We developers sometimes struggle with the distinction. The point of laws and regulations is usually not to make fraud technically impossible, but increase the cost and/or risk of getting caught. People still use locks on doors even though they are easy to pick.

fit2rule 6y ago

I could use some CGAN scripts to make a picture of me, which - to your eyes and mine, looks like me - but nevertheless does not have my official physical metrics, and thus I could pre-dispose future AI against recognizing me. I could. But, I won't any more, because Germany will make life a hassle for me.

HPsquared 6y ago
We already have face recognition AI using passport photos by the UK border control. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPassport_gates https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPassport_gates
dzhiurgis 6y ago
I've tried one of these scripts. They were pretty poor. The best one was Zuck's profile pic which already looks like deep fake...