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Big auto companies plan a lot and send away press releases about electric concepts a lot too. It's been like that for the past decade, at least. They should sta

Big auto companies plan a lot and send away press releases about electric concepts a lot too. It's been like that for the past decade, at least. They should start building and selling, then I will believe them again.

fortran77 6y ago
GM has a lot of experience with electric cars. We have had GM Bolts and Volts and have been very satisfied with them. I wouldn't discount their ability so fast.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  GM has made far more announcements about electric cars than actual shipping products and their track record with shipping what they say they are going to ship is not great. For example the Chevy Volt only marginally resembles the Volt prototype. Also, the fact that GM has continued to lobby for laxer CAFE standards and is in a legal battle over California's right to set higher fuel economy standards is a big black mark against them in my book.
- Shivetya 6y ago
  A lot of experience has not translated well to their consumer offerings which have not really changed since the rushed the Bolt as a 2017 model. The EUV variant instead of advancing the technology of the Bolt is little more than a stretched variant with the same limited charging. Yes they have experience but GM is operating from the concept of earning sufficient ZEV credits only. The dropped PHEV (Volt) right prior to the rest of the industry going that direction all because it wasn't worth the cost to ZEV points. What I am interested in is seeing how invested Ford is, if the Mach E sales take off will they make enough to meet the need to artificially constrain production to just what they need to sale. The real danger to EV transportation is the big manufacturers trying to keep maximum ranges below three hundred miles. Even luxury makers are barely going there with future products. By keeping ranges in that lower two hundred mile area they can continue to exploit range anxiety issues and consign EVs to local transportation only thereby not threatening their cash cows.
  - WorldMaker 6y ago
    > The dropped PHEV (Volt) right prior to the rest of the industry going that direction all because it wasn't worth the cost to ZEV points. GM also stated that PHEV was a compromise/transition technology and BEVs have hit certain benchmarks (and so too have charging infrastructure) that the focus should be on BEVs now. (As a 2012 Volt owner, I'm inclined to agree as one anecdotal owner. PHEV made a lot of sense in 2012, but the compromises needed in PHEV increasingly make less sense in 2020 and I doubt my next car will be anything but a full BEV.) > What I am interested in is seeing how invested Ford is, if the Mach E sales take off will they make enough to meet the need to artificially constrain production to just what they need to sale. Ford is playing catch up no matter what. The only hope the Mach E has to working well is how much Ford is paying to external collaborators for outside tech. GM has pre-announced something like a half-dozen to a dozen new BEV models will be announced in the next year or so and heavily invested in BEV only facilities. Ford is still in the dipping the toes in the water stage of BEV production. > The real danger to EV transportation is the big manufacturers trying to keep maximum ranges below three hundred miles. The real danger to EV transportation is thinking ~250 miles on a charge is "local transportation only". I understand Americans have a bloated sense of the miles they need to travel regularly, but range anxiety is overblown and 300 miles/charge is no more useful a magic number than 200 miles/charge in assuaging range anxiety. (Some Europeans were already happy with ~100 mile/charge Nissan Leafs for long distance continental travel half a decade ago.)
    - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
      The problem with BEV vehicles is we can’t make enough batteries. Right now we could probably make four or five times as many PHEVs which would have a bigger impact.
      - WorldMaker 6y ago
        In the US, battery production doesn't seem to be the bottleneck. LG Chem and Panasonic battery plants in the US are ramping up much faster than GM/Ford can build cars.
      - 6y ago
- 1234letshaveatw 6y ago
  Love my bolt. Super peppy and I think they are neat looking. Plenty of places to top off for free as well in my area (Detroit subs)
DoingIsLearning 6y ago
'British Gas', a U.K. utility company has been running a fleet of electric vans for house calls and boiler maintenance since at least 2015 (Nissan NV200). The technology is already good enough for a large fraction of business use cases. Now it is up to us to us as customers to put our wallet where our mouth is and to pressure businesses and governments to ditch diesel engines for good.
Obi_Juan_Kenobi 6y ago
The lip service was in an era of small-m millions for EV investment. The past 3-4 years have seen capital-B Billions of investment from most of the major automakers. Some are more aggressive than others, but they're all genuinely starting. Money talks. Obviously Tesla was first, but Renault, Kia, and Hyundai are producing EVs in earnest. VW is starting to ramp up this year. About a dozen companies will kick in over the next couple years. The economics of EVs make them inevitable.
- omgwtfbyobbq 6y ago
  Do you have any sources for the billion dollar investments? I've seen press releases about billion dollar contracts with suppliers, but not as much about billion dollar investments in factories/tooling/etc.
  - clomond 6y ago
    Not OP but a quick search turns up: Ford $11B USD by 2022: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-detroit-ford-motor-idUSKBN1F30YZ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-detroit-ford-mot... VW Group $84B USD by 2030: https://electrek.co/2017/09/11/vw-massive-billion-investment-in-electric-cars-and-batteries/ https://electrek.co/2017/09/11/vw-massive-billion-investment... You can find sources with some digging for pretty much all the companies, and they are all in the “Capital B” magnitude category. In addition, the contracts and agreements for new battery cell factories from LG Chem, Samsung, BYD, etc etc.
    - kjksf 6y ago
      You're proving the OP's point with those links i.e. the car makers were lying about their plans for a decade and at this point I'll believe it when I see it. According to the first article you linked, in January 2018 Ford promised: >Of the 40 electrified vehicles Ford plans for its global lineup by 2022, 16 will be fully electric and the rest will be plug-in hybrids, executives said. Needless to say, Ford will not have 16 fully electric cars by 2022. They'll have Mach E this year, maybe. They promised electric F-150, no date given. What are those other 14 EVs to be shipped in 2 years when they don't even have a prototype today? If you want to see their real plans consider this March 2020 report https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a31944369/ford-gm-production-plans-suvs-pickups/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a31944369/ford-gm-producti... >The Reuters news service obtained the production plans of Ford and General Motors, which showed that SUVs and pickups, not electric vehicles, are what's coming. >Combined, Ford and GM plan to make five million SUVs and pickups in 2026 while building just 320,000 electric vehicles This is based not on PR promises but actual plans Ford has. 320k / 40 imaginary electrified models is less than 10k per model, in 2026, not 2022. And 320k is combined for Ford and GM.
rsynnott 6y ago
I mean, it's not like this is an exciting new thing; electric vans have been around for a while. They seem quite popular for urban deliveries; I see a lot of DHL and DPD electric vans around here. Also, Electric Ireland (the state company that owns the electric infra) uses them, though its reasons for doing so may be more advertising related.
- danans 6y ago
  It's a very different situation in the US. Even in areas with high consumer EV adoption (i.e.CA cities), you hardly ever see electric delivery trucks. It makes sense, because we don't have local restrictions on emissions to the degree that exists in Europe.
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    The big driver of electric vans is operational cost, AFAIK. Dublin doesn’t have emissions rules different from the country as a whole, but delivery companies seem to be keen on the electric vans anyway.
    - danans 6y ago
      > The big driver of electric vans is operational cost, AFAIK. Total taxes on gasoline and diesel are significantly higher in Ireland (2.50 USD/gal) than the highest gas tax states in the US (like California with total gas taxes of 73c/gallon). The incentive to lower emissions is provided indirectly by those those high taxes on gasoline/petrol, which directly manifests in the form of higher efficiency vehicles. There is far less of that incentive in the US.
clouddrover 6y ago
Tesla used to be the #1 BEV maker in Europe. Now they're #3: https://www.schmidtmatthias.de/post/april-2020-european-electric-car-market-top-sellers https://www.schmidtmatthias.de/post/april-2020-european-elec...

fortran77 6y ago

GM has a lot of experience with electric cars. We have had GM Bolts and Volts and have been very satisfied with them. I wouldn't discount their ability so fast.

ogre_codes 6y ago
GM has made far more announcements about electric cars than actual shipping products and their track record with shipping what they say they are going to ship is not great. For example the Chevy Volt only marginally resembles the Volt prototype. Also, the fact that GM has continued to lobby for laxer CAFE standards and is in a legal battle over California's right to set higher fuel economy standards is a big black mark against them in my book.
Shivetya 6y ago
A lot of experience has not translated well to their consumer offerings which have not really changed since the rushed the Bolt as a 2017 model. The EUV variant instead of advancing the technology of the Bolt is little more than a stretched variant with the same limited charging. Yes they have experience but GM is operating from the concept of earning sufficient ZEV credits only. The dropped PHEV (Volt) right prior to the rest of the industry going that direction all because it wasn't worth the cost to ZEV points. What I am interested in is seeing how invested Ford is, if the Mach E sales take off will they make enough to meet the need to artificially constrain production to just what they need to sale. The real danger to EV transportation is the big manufacturers trying to keep maximum ranges below three hundred miles. Even luxury makers are barely going there with future products. By keeping ranges in that lower two hundred mile area they can continue to exploit range anxiety issues and consign EVs to local transportation only thereby not threatening their cash cows.
- WorldMaker 6y ago
  > The dropped PHEV (Volt) right prior to the rest of the industry going that direction all because it wasn't worth the cost to ZEV points. GM also stated that PHEV was a compromise/transition technology and BEVs have hit certain benchmarks (and so too have charging infrastructure) that the focus should be on BEVs now. (As a 2012 Volt owner, I'm inclined to agree as one anecdotal owner. PHEV made a lot of sense in 2012, but the compromises needed in PHEV increasingly make less sense in 2020 and I doubt my next car will be anything but a full BEV.) > What I am interested in is seeing how invested Ford is, if the Mach E sales take off will they make enough to meet the need to artificially constrain production to just what they need to sale. Ford is playing catch up no matter what. The only hope the Mach E has to working well is how much Ford is paying to external collaborators for outside tech. GM has pre-announced something like a half-dozen to a dozen new BEV models will be announced in the next year or so and heavily invested in BEV only facilities. Ford is still in the dipping the toes in the water stage of BEV production. > The real danger to EV transportation is the big manufacturers trying to keep maximum ranges below three hundred miles. The real danger to EV transportation is thinking ~250 miles on a charge is "local transportation only". I understand Americans have a bloated sense of the miles they need to travel regularly, but range anxiety is overblown and 300 miles/charge is no more useful a magic number than 200 miles/charge in assuaging range anxiety. (Some Europeans were already happy with ~100 mile/charge Nissan Leafs for long distance continental travel half a decade ago.)
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    The problem with BEV vehicles is we can’t make enough batteries. Right now we could probably make four or five times as many PHEVs which would have a bigger impact.
    - WorldMaker 6y ago
      In the US, battery production doesn't seem to be the bottleneck. LG Chem and Panasonic battery plants in the US are ramping up much faster than GM/Ford can build cars.
    - 6y ago
1234letshaveatw 6y ago
Love my bolt. Super peppy and I think they are neat looking. Plenty of places to top off for free as well in my area (Detroit subs)

DoingIsLearning 6y ago

'British Gas', a U.K. utility company has been running a fleet of electric vans for house calls and boiler maintenance since at least 2015 (Nissan NV200). The technology is already good enough for a large fraction of business use cases. Now it is up to us to us as customers to put our wallet where our mouth is and to pressure businesses and governments to ditch diesel engines for good.

Obi_Juan_Kenobi 6y ago

The lip service was in an era of small-m millions for EV investment. The past 3-4 years have seen capital-B Billions of investment from most of the major automakers. Some are more aggressive than others, but they're all genuinely starting. Money talks. Obviously Tesla was first, but Renault, Kia, and Hyundai are producing EVs in earnest. VW is starting to ramp up this year. About a dozen companies will kick in over the next couple years. The economics of EVs make them inevitable.

omgwtfbyobbq 6y ago
Do you have any sources for the billion dollar investments? I've seen press releases about billion dollar contracts with suppliers, but not as much about billion dollar investments in factories/tooling/etc.
- clomond 6y ago
  Not OP but a quick search turns up: Ford $11B USD by 2022: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-detroit-ford-motor-idUSKBN1F30YZ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-detroit-ford-mot... VW Group $84B USD by 2030: https://electrek.co/2017/09/11/vw-massive-billion-investment-in-electric-cars-and-batteries/ https://electrek.co/2017/09/11/vw-massive-billion-investment... You can find sources with some digging for pretty much all the companies, and they are all in the “Capital B” magnitude category. In addition, the contracts and agreements for new battery cell factories from LG Chem, Samsung, BYD, etc etc.
  - kjksf 6y ago
    You're proving the OP's point with those links i.e. the car makers were lying about their plans for a decade and at this point I'll believe it when I see it. According to the first article you linked, in January 2018 Ford promised: >Of the 40 electrified vehicles Ford plans for its global lineup by 2022, 16 will be fully electric and the rest will be plug-in hybrids, executives said. Needless to say, Ford will not have 16 fully electric cars by 2022. They'll have Mach E this year, maybe. They promised electric F-150, no date given. What are those other 14 EVs to be shipped in 2 years when they don't even have a prototype today? If you want to see their real plans consider this March 2020 report https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a31944369/ford-gm-production-plans-suvs-pickups/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a31944369/ford-gm-producti... >The Reuters news service obtained the production plans of Ford and General Motors, which showed that SUVs and pickups, not electric vehicles, are what's coming. >Combined, Ford and GM plan to make five million SUVs and pickups in 2026 while building just 320,000 electric vehicles This is based not on PR promises but actual plans Ford has. 320k / 40 imaginary electrified models is less than 10k per model, in 2026, not 2022. And 320k is combined for Ford and GM.

rsynnott 6y ago

I mean, it's not like this is an exciting new thing; electric vans have been around for a while. They seem quite popular for urban deliveries; I see a lot of DHL and DPD electric vans around here. Also, Electric Ireland (the state company that owns the electric infra) uses them, though its reasons for doing so may be more advertising related.

danans 6y ago
It's a very different situation in the US. Even in areas with high consumer EV adoption (i.e.CA cities), you hardly ever see electric delivery trucks. It makes sense, because we don't have local restrictions on emissions to the degree that exists in Europe.
- rsynnott 6y ago
  The big driver of electric vans is operational cost, AFAIK. Dublin doesn’t have emissions rules different from the country as a whole, but delivery companies seem to be keen on the electric vans anyway.
  - danans 6y ago
    > The big driver of electric vans is operational cost, AFAIK. Total taxes on gasoline and diesel are significantly higher in Ireland (2.50 USD/gal) than the highest gas tax states in the US (like California with total gas taxes of 73c/gallon). The incentive to lower emissions is provided indirectly by those those high taxes on gasoline/petrol, which directly manifests in the form of higher efficiency vehicles. There is far less of that incentive in the US.

clouddrover 6y ago

Tesla used to be the #1 BEV maker in Europe. Now they're #3: https://www.schmidtmatthias.de/post/april-2020-european-electric-car-market-top-sellers https://www.schmidtmatthias.de/post/april-2020-european-elec...