4 ms·

> There would be no Tesla without the EV1 (at least not as we know Tesla today). Can you elaborate on that? How did the EV1 influence Tesla?

clouddrover 6y ago
The EV1 had a few industry leading features: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t22D4aUs0iw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t22D4aUs0iw https://www.motortrend.com/news/general-motors-ev1/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/general-motors-ev1/ For example, the EV1 had a heat-pump. Tesla only got around to that with the Model Y.
- cptskippy 6y ago
  Using a heat-pump in a vehicle isn't a revolutionary idea, it was just unnecessary as most ICEV can scavenge waste heat from the ICE. Limited adoption in EVs and PHEVs has largely been due to limited availability as there weren't any commercial adaptations for vehicles. Toyota and Nissan have been using heat-pumps for a while now though.
  - clouddrover 6y ago
    > Using a heat-pump in a vehicle isn't a revolutionary idea Ah, so it's even worse that Tesla didn't implement it earlier.
    - cptskippy 6y ago
      I'm not sure I would consider it worse. Consider some things: 1) GM chose to put resistive heating in the Spark, Volt, and Bolt. 2) Nissan put a heat-pump in the Leaf. 2) Tesla manages to make the most efficient EVs without using heat-pumps. So perhaps the choice between a heat-pump or resistive heating goes beyond efficiency? Or maybe in terms of biggest bang for the buck, heat-pumps are low on the list. Instead of trying to find fault in Tesla for what must surely be the biggest blunder in automotive history and will go down in the annuls of time as the defining moment where Tesla brought utter ruination upon us all, why not consider alternative theories? Maybe there aren't any commercially available ODM heat-pumps? That would explain why GM didn't use one and why one is absent from the S and Y that are closer to traditional vehicles. As for the Model 3, it's likely Tesla wanted to minimize space and maximize efficiency by integrating a custom thermal solution and a heat-pump just didn't make sense at the time. Heat-pumps are more complex than resistive heating and the Model 3's revolutionary SuperBottle integrates all of the vehicles thermal management systems. Perhaps they were playing it safe, or didn't have the time/budget to do a heat-pump. Regardless, the Model Y comes with a heat-pump to feed the Octovalve, the evolution of the SuperBottle.
      - clouddrover 6y ago
        > Tesla manages to make the most efficient EVs without using heat-pumps Not in lower temperatures without a heat-pump, which is when a heat-pump is at its most useful. Look how a heat-pump affects the range of the ID.3. There's worthwhile benefit even at 15 degrees Celsius: https://i.redd.it/mjcgffzui0c41.png https://i.redd.it/mjcgffzui0c41.png https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/electric/id/faq/electric-car-technology-development/heat-pump https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/electric/id/faq/electric-car-te... > why not consider alternative theories? There's no need for theories. The engineering is well understood. The EV1 got there first.
        cptskippy 6y ago
        > Not in lower temperatures without a heat-pump, which is when a heat-pump is at its most useful. Look how a heat-pump affects the range of the ID.3. There's worthwhile benefit even at 15 degrees Celsius I'm not sure what you're saying. You're disputing the overall efficiency of a Tesla based on the heat-pump performance of a car that has not yet shipped? > There's no need for theories. The engineering is well understood. The EV1 got there first. No one is disputing that the EV1 had a heat-pump first or that heat-pumps are more efficient than resistive heaters. You slighted Tesla for not having a heat-pump as if it were a serious fault. I am stating that the heating system isn't the most critical system in terms of overall vehicle efficiency.
        clouddrover 6y ago
        > I'm not sure what you're saying. Heat-pumps make the car more efficient. Look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7wxGl7m2sw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7wxGl7m2sw Look at this road test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH7V2tU3iFc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH7V2tU3iFc The two smallest cars in that test are the 64 kWh Kona and the Model 3 Long Range. The Kona has the smaller battery and worse aerodynamics. The Kona achieves 90% of its claimed WLTP range. The Tesla Model 3 Long Range only achieves 78% of its claimed WLTP range. The difference in those conditions is the heat pump. The Kona has one, the Model 3 doesn't. > You slighted Tesla Oh noes. Does Elon know? Please don't tell him.
bdamm 6y ago
The guys who founded Tesla (not Musk) to produce an electric supercar were coming out of the era where the EV1 had been destroyed. While I don't know if they personally drove an EV1, they were definitely rubbing shoulders with people who were. Did the EV1 product influence their decision to commit fully to developing an electric supercar? We'll never know for sure, but the timing is highly suspect, and suggests that it did.

clouddrover 6y ago

The EV1 had a few industry leading features: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t22D4aUs0iw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t22D4aUs0iw https://www.motortrend.com/news/general-motors-ev1/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/general-motors-ev1/ For example, the EV1 had a heat-pump. Tesla only got around to that with the Model Y.

cptskippy 6y ago
Using a heat-pump in a vehicle isn't a revolutionary idea, it was just unnecessary as most ICEV can scavenge waste heat from the ICE. Limited adoption in EVs and PHEVs has largely been due to limited availability as there weren't any commercial adaptations for vehicles. Toyota and Nissan have been using heat-pumps for a while now though.
- clouddrover 6y ago
  > Using a heat-pump in a vehicle isn't a revolutionary idea Ah, so it's even worse that Tesla didn't implement it earlier.
  - cptskippy 6y ago
    I'm not sure I would consider it worse. Consider some things: 1) GM chose to put resistive heating in the Spark, Volt, and Bolt. 2) Nissan put a heat-pump in the Leaf. 2) Tesla manages to make the most efficient EVs without using heat-pumps. So perhaps the choice between a heat-pump or resistive heating goes beyond efficiency? Or maybe in terms of biggest bang for the buck, heat-pumps are low on the list. Instead of trying to find fault in Tesla for what must surely be the biggest blunder in automotive history and will go down in the annuls of time as the defining moment where Tesla brought utter ruination upon us all, why not consider alternative theories? Maybe there aren't any commercially available ODM heat-pumps? That would explain why GM didn't use one and why one is absent from the S and Y that are closer to traditional vehicles. As for the Model 3, it's likely Tesla wanted to minimize space and maximize efficiency by integrating a custom thermal solution and a heat-pump just didn't make sense at the time. Heat-pumps are more complex than resistive heating and the Model 3's revolutionary SuperBottle integrates all of the vehicles thermal management systems. Perhaps they were playing it safe, or didn't have the time/budget to do a heat-pump. Regardless, the Model Y comes with a heat-pump to feed the Octovalve, the evolution of the SuperBottle.
    - clouddrover 6y ago
      > Tesla manages to make the most efficient EVs without using heat-pumps Not in lower temperatures without a heat-pump, which is when a heat-pump is at its most useful. Look how a heat-pump affects the range of the ID.3. There's worthwhile benefit even at 15 degrees Celsius: https://i.redd.it/mjcgffzui0c41.png https://i.redd.it/mjcgffzui0c41.png https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/electric/id/faq/electric-car-technology-development/heat-pump https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/electric/id/faq/electric-car-te... > why not consider alternative theories? There's no need for theories. The engineering is well understood. The EV1 got there first.
      - cptskippy 6y ago
        > Not in lower temperatures without a heat-pump, which is when a heat-pump is at its most useful. Look how a heat-pump affects the range of the ID.3. There's worthwhile benefit even at 15 degrees Celsius I'm not sure what you're saying. You're disputing the overall efficiency of a Tesla based on the heat-pump performance of a car that has not yet shipped? > There's no need for theories. The engineering is well understood. The EV1 got there first. No one is disputing that the EV1 had a heat-pump first or that heat-pumps are more efficient than resistive heaters. You slighted Tesla for not having a heat-pump as if it were a serious fault. I am stating that the heating system isn't the most critical system in terms of overall vehicle efficiency.
        clouddrover 6y ago
        > I'm not sure what you're saying. Heat-pumps make the car more efficient. Look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7wxGl7m2sw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7wxGl7m2sw Look at this road test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH7V2tU3iFc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH7V2tU3iFc The two smallest cars in that test are the 64 kWh Kona and the Model 3 Long Range. The Kona has the smaller battery and worse aerodynamics. The Kona achieves 90% of its claimed WLTP range. The Tesla Model 3 Long Range only achieves 78% of its claimed WLTP range. The difference in those conditions is the heat pump. The Kona has one, the Model 3 doesn't. > You slighted Tesla Oh noes. Does Elon know? Please don't tell him.

bdamm 6y ago

The guys who founded Tesla (not Musk) to produce an electric supercar were coming out of the era where the EV1 had been destroyed. While I don't know if they personally drove an EV1, they were definitely rubbing shoulders with people who were. Did the EV1 product influence their decision to commit fully to developing an electric supercar? We'll never know for sure, but the timing is highly suspect, and suggests that it did.