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It’s a highly privileged position to be in to make a personal stand and leave your $250,000 job for another $250,000 job. Not judging this way or that, just sa
by blickentwapft 6y ago
It’s a highly privileged position to be in to make a personal stand and leave your $250,000 job for another $250,000 job.
Not judging this way or that, just saying.
- oivey 6y agoOf course it is. Arguably the people with that privilege should have more obligation to exercise it in the service of what’s right.
- blickentwapft 6y agoWhilst his stance is to be applauded, it lessens the value of the stance given that he’s not sacrificing much and won’t suffer for his cause. Doesn’t mean it’s not the right thing to do, just that it would carry more weight if he was leaving to go work at Burger King. Then you’d say “man that guy stands tall”. Edit: Ok reasonable criticism, I’ll withdraw.
- bluntfang 6y ago>it lessens the value of the stance given that he’s not sacrificing much and won’t suffer for his cause. You are literally the only person who thinks this.
- tzs 6y agoSo it would be more valuable if a janitor quit their job at Facebook than if a developer quit?
- kortilla 6y agoOnly if the janitor was clearing 250k at Facebook. OP’s idea is sacrificing a high paying job that isn’t easy for you to replace.
- testbot123 6y agoFacebook loses much more money with this employee's departure (if their salary is indeed 250k like you're claiming) -- the cost of recruiting, training, and keeping employees is incredibly high, especially in tech. Now imagine that OP inspires 100 employees quit -- now Facebook has a problem that it must address, because it's threatening their bottom line.
- whatshisface 6y agoHe would stand even taller if while he was quitting Facebook, he was running in to a burning building to save a child. Of course, while saving a child is to be applauded, it lessens the value of his stance that he's not also saving 10,000 from starvation. Of course, that would be nothing next to achieving world peace while eliminating corruption in every government in the world. I'm not saying he shouldn't quit Facebook over his convictions, it's just that it would be awfully nice if he solved every global problem and then was crucified on an actual cross for doing it on the way out.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y agoWhile there's no proof of life on other planets, there's equally no proof there's not, and it might be suffering terribly and frankly I don't see this guy doing anything about that either. Until he does it's just virtue signalling. (yeah, I don't get some people either)
- Spooky23 6y agoPublic resignations are an honorable form of protest. There is probably some consequence for doing so publicly, but suffering isn’t a requirement. Resigning isn’t about sacrifice to the volcano god, and if that is what you’re looking for, you are not the audience.
- tendencydriven 6y agoCurrently he's leaving his ~250k job with no other job lined up. I don't think it lessens the value of his stance at all.
- jmhnilbog 6y agoYeah, he might have to move away from the west coast and live like a king on whatever scraps he saved.
- carapace 6y agoI think you have to measure these things (if at all) by the person's own context, not by external comparisons. It reminds me of the old joke about the skinflint who accidentally put a pound in the collection plate instead of a shilling. "Oh well", he says, "I'll get credit for the pound." The priest hears him and replies, "No, you'll get credit for the shilling."
- effable 6y agoWouldn't you say that a society that only places high value on taking a stance if that comes at great personal cost will probably not find too many people willing to take a stance?
- kingkawn 6y agoI think that the idea that one must suffer to be valid is a way to ensure that no radical transformations of society take place, because in such a culture the most radical people can only be validated by dying.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- human 6y agoListening to that argument is a clear “catch 22”. If he quits his job, it’s not much of a stance but obviously staying is not a stance either. What was he supposed to do? I think that in a capitalist country we choose who we buy from and who we work for. These are two powerful choices that can shape society. He’s doing the right thing.
- majewsky 6y ago> obviously staying is not a stance either This is not obvious to me.
- thomasfedb 6y agoI think the suggestion here is: if you are in a position to leave your job, and you do not, then than is implicit support for your employer.
- indigochill 6y agoI might even say explicit support. After all, how better to support a company than directly working for them? In some business models you're probably generating more value for the company working for them than you would as a customer.
- majewsky 6y agoAh sorry, I think I parsed this wrong. I thought it meant "no stance" instead of "not much of a stance".
- luckylion 6y ago> He’s doing the right thing. He worked at Facebook, let's not get carried away. Working at Facebook and then leaving because of the non-intervention wrt to the President is a bit like manufacturing landmines quite happily, but having a change of heart because you saw a dog stepping on one. You've still been manufacturing landmines all that time, making money and not giving a damn.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- 50ckpuppet 6y agoMighty white of you to call out what other people's obligations are.
- gdsdfe 6y agoit's much more than most people have done and having the skills to be payed $250,000 is not a privilege. you don't wake up one day knowing how to code it'a a lot of work.
- vsareto 6y ago>having the skills to be payed $250,000 is not a privilege It is privilege having a stable life to get there, but we're calling out this dude's privilege like he's Jeff Bezos throwing a million dollar coin to a witcher. It's definitely a sacrifice to quit a nice job during a pandemic and nationwide riots.
- kranner 6y agoIt's a privilege when it is relatively accessible to some and not to others. Given that it's much easier for a kid in the Western hemisphere to learn coding than for a poor kid in a remote village in Bangladesh, it is a privilege for the former that the latter doesn't have.
- gdsdfe 6y agoI come from a poor country, I was selling shoes since the age of 13 to be able to pay for my school books, now I have a 100k job ... I didn't get here because I was privileged, I worked my ass off. was I lucky? yes but not privileged.
- kranner 6y agoThe other people back in your country of origin who didn’t make it because of physical or mental illness, lack of opportunities you may have had, bad turns of fate, etc —- would you not think of them as even less privileged than yourself?
- foogazi 6y agoTIL everyone is privileged now - Have two eyes? what about the blind - Can you speak english? What about those that never had the opportunity to learn - Are you alive ? What about those that passed away The judgement never ends
- foenix 6y agoIt's a highly-privileged position to be in to make vapid comments HN, but here we are.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- DoofusOfDeath 6y agoTo be fair, it doesn't sound like he has another job lined up. There's no guarantee his next job will pay that well.
- csunbird 6y agoWith the amount of fame he is getting with this post, I would be surprised if he did not receive 30+ offers that pays well yet. Edit: Of course, the big 5 (FAANG) will not touch him even with a 10 meter pole, but there are other places also pays well.
- k__ 6y agoIf one of the five wanted to kick FB butt in the future, they happily will.
- s1artibartfast 6y agoWhy would a they need an outspoken Dev with 1 year of total work experience to kick butt?
- qazpot 6y agoExactly, this guy is getting enough traction on linkedin and facebook as well. His inbox would be flooding with invites for interviews right now.
- mproud 6y agoAgreed. I don’t think that’s their fault, I’m happy they=’re leaving, but the people commenting and upvoting these threads should question how much attention this one person deserves. There are people working jobs in far worse conditions with far worse bosses we never hear about.
- adrianmonk 6y agoNot sure I agree with the premise that this has to be only or primarily about how much this guy deserves the attention. Maybe the goal of praising him isn't to make his life better but is instead to encourage other people to also stand up for what they believe in. Or maybe it's to contrast him with other people who are in a similar position of privilege (and feel the same about Zuckerberg's lack of action) but chose not to sacrifice anything at all for their principles.
- kyuudou 6y ago"“If you keep in mind that he is what I refer to as a corrupt idealist, then you can be assured that he will move mountains for you.” The green-eyed man laughed. “Okay, that’s a new Americanism on me. What the hell do you mean by a corrupt idealist?” Claude folded his hands. “That’s a person who will do everything he can to make something happen when he is convinced that he is working for the good of the many, while managing to ignore the fact that he is being paid handsomely for his work while his countrymen suffer in poverty.” “In other words, your typical non-governmental organization type,” Park Dong Woo said. Claude winced. “I suppose so. I expect that Ritesh would fit right in working for one of those NGOs, except they don’t pay enough.” “Fortunately, we can, if he is up to the task.”" Excerpt From: J. Lee Porter. “Crypto Citizens.”
- testbot123 6y agoDon't have any commentary on the substance of this quote, but man that is some terrible writing.
- icedchai 6y agoAbsolutely. It's practically unreadable.
- ogre_codes 6y agoIt's not that simple or easy. Many of these guys are giving up tends of thousands of dollars in benefits (stock options/ bonuses). Also, the assumption that everyone with a good paying job at Facebook is going to be able to quickly pick up a comparable job in a short amount of time is a huge stretch. Ultimately developers leaving and people refusing to work for Facebook, drive up Facebook's costs and speaks to their management in the only language Facebook management seems to understand: Profitability.
- swagonomixxx 6y agoIt's not really a huge stretch, his post on LinkedIn [0] has 200K+ reactions, and it's an understatement to say he'll have no trouble _at all_ getting a job within a few weeks. [0]: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/timothy-j-aveni_blacklivesmatter-activity-6673316720993824768-q_dU/ https://www.linkedin.com/posts/timothy-j-aveni_blacklivesmat...
- discordance 6y agoThat’s great. In that case, I encourage more Facebook employees to vote with their feet (before voting with their ballot paper in November of course).
- Thaxll 6y agoI woudn't be so sure, not at FANG anyway. Those public stunts are no go for most big compagnies.
- jmhnilbog 6y agoOne more data point that no one with self-respect could work at a FAANG company?
- benschulz 6y agoYou're making the assumption that he knew what the reaction would be. The post could have easily gone ignored, especially in the current turmoil. I agree that software developers have it pretty good. But let's not, on that basis, discount acts of moral integrity.
- DevX101 6y agoI respect the privileged for speaking out. They are the ones that often can affect change and have their voices heard. A packaging employee at an Amazon warehouse quitting over principles isn't a blip on the radar. When the VP does it and explicitly makes the argument on why he's leaving, Bezos hears and takes notice. He might not change anything, but he hears.
- wojcikstefan 6y agoI think it's still a respectable sacrifice. a) There's often an emotional toll to looking for a new position, b) even if the job search only takes a month, that's 250/12 = $20k of a financial hit, which is not a trivial loss.
- guerrilla 6y ago> Not judging this way or that, just saying. Simply adding this to your post doesn't make it true. Clearly you've judged it to not be as valuable of an act as it could have been. Not saying you're being dismisve, just saying.
- cheez 6y agoNo one is going to hire him.
- Tade0 6y agoImagine the damage to the business for not having someone creating more than $250k of value annually. Of course at Facebook's scale it's a small number, but given the damage to their reputation, they will have to take note once this crosses critical mass.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- 0-O-0 6y agoUnless he was in a very unusual position of leading some kind of research project related to Facebook's core business, there will be close to no damage. It's a huge corporation, not a bootstrapped startup, everyone is highly replaceable.
- testbot123 6y agoLuckily, he made a very public post about it which is currently being discussed in one of the most influential tech news aggregators on the internet. If others are inspired and also leave the company, it will make an impact.
- artsyca 6y agoI'm calling total BS. He should stay to change the system from within. Total waste of hard work to give up now. This is a knee jerk reaction and the poor lamb is going to live to regret it. I'm surprised they didn't have him out on his ass the same day and gave him a whole extra week to potentially sabotage the systems. Edit: OK fine. I agree it's totally an uphill struggle and in all fairness it's one we're all fighting. It's one man versus a sea of apathy where all the incentives are geared towards productivity at all costs and bitter disempowerment and ostracism for anyone that steps out of line. I were him I'd go hardcore until they actually fired me i.e. make it hard for them rather than take a gallant bow -- how's that for starters? Whatever happened to fighting for what you believe in? How can you leave all your hard work in the hands of people you no longer trust? I've actually gone all the way up and been fired by a roomful of directors and a vice president for calling out bullshit agile theatre. Part of it rests on everyone's shoulders because I know for sure a lot of people reading this thread right now would jump at the chance to take his place, struggle be damned. Look at what happens to anyone that expresses a dissenting opinion I'd like to see more downvotes just to make sure I'm on the right side of this issue.
- jakelazaroff 6y agoClearly it's not working though? At some point you need to wake up and realize that efforts to "change the system from within" are futile.
- artsyca 6y agoYea so he's moving to another company for more of the same hoping the issue will never come up again.
- cycloptic 6y agoHow many times have people at these companies tried to "manage up" from within and it didn't work? I honestly lost count by now. This will continue as long as there are enablers on the other side who keep offering to foot the bill in exchange for the lion's share of management's attention. I see this quite often. As a rank-and-file employee, there comes a point where a lot of people have to cut their losses and realize that, within whatever their current trajectory is, the chances of becoming a VP or C-level and making a real difference within a reasonable timeframe are slim. I wish it wasn't so, because as you can see, the only option in that situation is to quit.
- thinkharderdev 6y agoI look at it a little differently. The point is not to make some noble sacrifice, but to actually try and create actual substantive change. I would imagine that Facebook, like all tech companies, cares A LOT about their ability to recruit and retain talent. So if their employees start resigning and talented engineers are averse to work at Facebook then that will absolutely be something that FB tries to solve.
- masukomi 6y agohe's a "Software Engineer" at facebook. He's not even a "Senior Software Engineer" He is NOT making 250k and he likely lives _near_ facebook which means _most_ of his money is going directly into housing. There are a LOT of people working what is normally considered a high income job in the bay area and living out of their vans because that's the only way they can actually have any money left over at the end of the month. Yes, he's a privileged white male and will likely get a job offer soon, but that doesn't mean he's rolling in cash. Also, take a look at average salaries. Devs don't make $250,000 in the US unless they've got some really high profile public backstory.
- discordance 6y agoLevels.fyi disagrees with you
- QuercusMax 6y agoMaybe not 250K salary, but with bonuses and equity, absolutely you can get there.
- QuercusMax 6y agoYou are extremely out of touch with actual bay area compensation for big companies. I made more than 250K total comp as a senior eng at Google in 2015.
- kudokatz 6y ago> Devs don't make $250,000 in the US unless they've got some really high profile public backstory. In my experience, this is VERY far from accurate in high-paying markets like Seattle and the Bay Area
- s1artibartfast 6y agoThe average facebook dev in the Bay area with 0 years of experience starts over 180. The average FAANG dev hits 250K around 3-4 years of total industry experience.
- 6y ago
- harikb 6y agoUnless you know some specifics that is not public, he would be leaving significant money on the table. That is, financially sacrificing. If a portion of salary is paid as RSU, that portion would have unvested portions carried over from prior years. My best guess would be that he is losing at least $50k until he closes the gap in about 2 to 3 years at the new job. of course the new job could pay him lot more, I am not ruling that out. Give him credit for what he did. He is losing a lot more than us armchair pundits.
- zouhair 6y agoImagine if all the people that are in a privileged position just say "fuck it, let's do something about it" how life would be better for all.
- yibg 6y agoCertainly sounds like making a judgement. That taking a moral stance has a different values based on one's socioeconomic position.
- wavesounds 6y agoDon't forget we are in the middle of a pandemic, it's not the easiest time to find a job. Also I don't think it ads much to the conversation to try to minimize someones sacrifice, you don't know their personal situation, and even if its not that hard on them personally who cares, it's still a principled stand of where to invest ones time and energy.
- bparsons 6y agoLeaving your job in the middle of an recession/depression is scary for anyone.
- jordanpg 6y agoReading this most charitably, the implication seems to be that his action _isn't enough_. That he should also devote his efforts full time to combating the problems he speaks about for less compensation, or donate the excess compensation to related causes, otherwise the action is unworthy. These are restatements of classic utilitarian dilemmas, as stated by, among many others, Peter Singer[0]. "In a society in which the narrow pursuit of material self-interest is the norm, the shift to an ethical stance is more radical than many people realize." [0] https://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/199704--.htm https://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/199704--.htm
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- wslh 6y agoMaybe you are working in the job of your life at FB and leaving to a less stimulant job.
- sharadov 6y agoNo large company will touch this kid with a 10 ft pole, all that messaging that they want disrupters is media hogwash. He is burnt, pure and simple
- bananamerica 6y ago> Not judging this way or that I can’t help but think this actually is a judgement.
- tomger 6y ago“Just saying” is judging. The anxiety created by his move is real. At the same time we can accept that other people are in a worse financial situation.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- hindsightbias 6y agoPeople with this level of income could also manage to support 3 or 4 others with UBI. Not saying one person making a moral stand is bad, but economically hundreds of thousands of FAANGers could make a humongous impact.