8 ms·

Less talking and more building, please. Even if Tesla doesn't win the EV war, its legacy will always be getting us into it. Future generations will thank them.

clouddrover 6y ago
> Even if Tesla doesn't win the EV war There is no EV war. There are only car companies selling cars.
- bdamm 6y ago
  See: Browser wars, desktop wars, battle of the search engines. Domination of a market is often referred to as war.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
OrangeMango 6y ago
> Less talking and more building, please. For GM and Ford, building the vehicle is the easy part. At this point, they all know how to build an electric vehicle. They definitely need to do a lot more talking. They need to normalize the idea. They need the buyers to believe that it's better. These are commercial vehicles, they need to have a lower cost of operation. And buyers have to believe it. So keep talking (and also build them).
- flmlta 6y ago
  Many consumers believe it's better but can't afford the price of an EV even after incentives. We don't need more talk, we need better prices. Sub 30k crossovers/hatchbacks is what consumers are buying in droves. These markets aren't exactly flush with EVs or even hybrids.
  - hedora 6y ago
    Those people can’t afford new cars. They probably could afford an LPG conversion kit. Such kits are widely available outside the US, and are a good stopgap technology to reduce CO2 emissions between now and when the fleet is 100% electric.
    - flmlta 6y ago
      Plenty of people can afford new cars, just not necessarily expensive ones. The average price of a new vehicle in the united states is around 35k, but the average price of an electric vehicle is closer to 50k. If you want the average person to be buying an EV, the price needs to come down. It should also be mentioned that loan terms for new vehicles are insane right now which is partially why the average price of new cars is so high - GM is offering 84 month, 0% loans on its trucks - today!
- mattlondon 6y ago
  Also they need to invest in installing a decent charging network, like Tesla has. Often in the UK you'll see 10 or more Tesla rapid chargers with 200+kw charging rates at key locations, then for everyone else there are perhaps just two 50kw chargers which are either ice'd or broken or both. Until people see rapid chargers they can actually use in most supermarket and shopping mall's car parks etc it is going to be a hard-sell. We're getting there slowly with things like Ionity, but it is still a rarity to see decent rapid chargers in convenient & plentiful locations. Of course, for commercial operators this wont be a concern. but for the average joe who doesn't have off-street parking at home then they need a reliable place to refuel.
- michaelt 6y ago
  Ford's only EV is just a pre-order page, so it's not yet evident to me that they know how to build an electric vehicle.
  - OrangeMango 6y ago
    Ford sold a fully-electric Focus for about 8 years. They've sold multiple generations of plug-in hybrid vehicles, and codeveloped (and sold) a fully-electric delivery van about 10 years ago. They know how to do it.
    - michaelt 6y ago
      Not well enough to make a product they didn't end up discontinuing.
  - fomine3 6y ago
    There's no reason a manufacturer that makes complicated PHEV can't make BEV.
- leesec 6y ago
  "At this point, they all know how to build an electric vehicle." Just not an EV that's profitable that consumers actually want, or can compete with other EV's at similar price point. Tesla Model 3 being best selling car by revenue means consumers are already sold on the idea.
  - OrangeMango 6y ago
    This article is about business vans, not consumer cars. The needs and economics are vastly different. Do a quick search for 'van upfitter' and see. That's the market they are aiming for. What Tesla offers is completely orthogonal. Given the way that Tesla treats 3rd party repair shops, it's hard to believe that they could possibly make a serious offering in this space.
csours 6y ago
Disclaimer: I work for GM, anything stated here is solely my own opinion. I think competition is a great thing. There would be no Tesla without the EV1 (at least not as we know Tesla today). Likewise there would be no Volt PHEV without Tesla, no Bolt EV (My own opinion only). My point is, the market reacts to what is put out there. There is almost no case where you can find a car without parallel from another company. You can certainly find better and worse, cheaper and more expensive, greater or fewer features, etc; but rarely does the market leave the field open for one player to run wild.
- gkfasdfasdf 6y ago
  > There would be no Tesla without the EV1 (at least not as we know Tesla today). Can you elaborate on that? How did the EV1 influence Tesla?
  - clouddrover 6y ago
    The EV1 had a few industry leading features: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t22D4aUs0iw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t22D4aUs0iw https://www.motortrend.com/news/general-motors-ev1/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/general-motors-ev1/ For example, the EV1 had a heat-pump. Tesla only got around to that with the Model Y.
    - cptskippy 6y ago
      Using a heat-pump in a vehicle isn't a revolutionary idea, it was just unnecessary as most ICEV can scavenge waste heat from the ICE. Limited adoption in EVs and PHEVs has largely been due to limited availability as there weren't any commercial adaptations for vehicles. Toyota and Nissan have been using heat-pumps for a while now though.
      - clouddrover 6y ago
        > Using a heat-pump in a vehicle isn't a revolutionary idea Ah, so it's even worse that Tesla didn't implement it earlier.

clouddrover 6y ago

> Even if Tesla doesn't win the EV war There is no EV war. There are only car companies selling cars.

bdamm 6y ago
See: Browser wars, desktop wars, battle of the search engines. Domination of a market is often referred to as war.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

OrangeMango 6y ago

> Less talking and more building, please. For GM and Ford, building the vehicle is the easy part. At this point, they all know how to build an electric vehicle. They definitely need to do a lot more talking. They need to normalize the idea. They need the buyers to believe that it's better. These are commercial vehicles, they need to have a lower cost of operation. And buyers have to believe it. So keep talking (and also build them).

flmlta 6y ago
Many consumers believe it's better but can't afford the price of an EV even after incentives. We don't need more talk, we need better prices. Sub 30k crossovers/hatchbacks is what consumers are buying in droves. These markets aren't exactly flush with EVs or even hybrids.
- hedora 6y ago
  Those people can’t afford new cars. They probably could afford an LPG conversion kit. Such kits are widely available outside the US, and are a good stopgap technology to reduce CO2 emissions between now and when the fleet is 100% electric.
  - flmlta 6y ago
    Plenty of people can afford new cars, just not necessarily expensive ones. The average price of a new vehicle in the united states is around 35k, but the average price of an electric vehicle is closer to 50k. If you want the average person to be buying an EV, the price needs to come down. It should also be mentioned that loan terms for new vehicles are insane right now which is partially why the average price of new cars is so high - GM is offering 84 month, 0% loans on its trucks - today!
mattlondon 6y ago
Also they need to invest in installing a decent charging network, like Tesla has. Often in the UK you'll see 10 or more Tesla rapid chargers with 200+kw charging rates at key locations, then for everyone else there are perhaps just two 50kw chargers which are either ice'd or broken or both. Until people see rapid chargers they can actually use in most supermarket and shopping mall's car parks etc it is going to be a hard-sell. We're getting there slowly with things like Ionity, but it is still a rarity to see decent rapid chargers in convenient & plentiful locations. Of course, for commercial operators this wont be a concern. but for the average joe who doesn't have off-street parking at home then they need a reliable place to refuel.
michaelt 6y ago
Ford's only EV is just a pre-order page, so it's not yet evident to me that they know how to build an electric vehicle.
- OrangeMango 6y ago
  Ford sold a fully-electric Focus for about 8 years. They've sold multiple generations of plug-in hybrid vehicles, and codeveloped (and sold) a fully-electric delivery van about 10 years ago. They know how to do it.
  - michaelt 6y ago
    Not well enough to make a product they didn't end up discontinuing.
- fomine3 6y ago
  There's no reason a manufacturer that makes complicated PHEV can't make BEV.
leesec 6y ago
"At this point, they all know how to build an electric vehicle." Just not an EV that's profitable that consumers actually want, or can compete with other EV's at similar price point. Tesla Model 3 being best selling car by revenue means consumers are already sold on the idea.
- OrangeMango 6y ago
  This article is about business vans, not consumer cars. The needs and economics are vastly different. Do a quick search for 'van upfitter' and see. That's the market they are aiming for. What Tesla offers is completely orthogonal. Given the way that Tesla treats 3rd party repair shops, it's hard to believe that they could possibly make a serious offering in this space.

csours 6y ago

Disclaimer: I work for GM, anything stated here is solely my own opinion. I think competition is a great thing. There would be no Tesla without the EV1 (at least not as we know Tesla today). Likewise there would be no Volt PHEV without Tesla, no Bolt EV (My own opinion only). My point is, the market reacts to what is put out there. There is almost no case where you can find a car without parallel from another company. You can certainly find better and worse, cheaper and more expensive, greater or fewer features, etc; but rarely does the market leave the field open for one player to run wild.

gkfasdfasdf 6y ago
> There would be no Tesla without the EV1 (at least not as we know Tesla today). Can you elaborate on that? How did the EV1 influence Tesla?
- clouddrover 6y ago
  The EV1 had a few industry leading features: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t22D4aUs0iw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t22D4aUs0iw https://www.motortrend.com/news/general-motors-ev1/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/general-motors-ev1/ For example, the EV1 had a heat-pump. Tesla only got around to that with the Model Y.
  - cptskippy 6y ago
    Using a heat-pump in a vehicle isn't a revolutionary idea, it was just unnecessary as most ICEV can scavenge waste heat from the ICE. Limited adoption in EVs and PHEVs has largely been due to limited availability as there weren't any commercial adaptations for vehicles. Toyota and Nissan have been using heat-pumps for a while now though.
    - clouddrover 6y ago
      > Using a heat-pump in a vehicle isn't a revolutionary idea Ah, so it's even worse that Tesla didn't implement it earlier.