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CIA veterans who monitored crackdowns see parallels
- hughmungus 6y agoSo we're just going to pretend that cities aren't going up in flames, businesses aren't being destroyed and innocent protestors, rioters and police aren't being killed? There is an extremely blurry line between peaceful and violent protests. Unfortunately all of the chaos of recent days that the WaPo and others (Obama, etc.) seem all too eager to sweep under the rug has ruined things for everyone.
- voganmother42 6y agoBlurry line for who? These protests are documented with more video and more sources than any ever in history. Please point to an example where violent protestor outnumber those being peaceful and exercising their rights? If you are so eager to call out individual protestors, are you as eager to call out police misconduct or paint with a broad brush for that viewpoint? Are you condemning ideas and groups or are you concerned with conduct?
- hughmungus 6y agoWe ask police to deal with mobs of violent criminals then get angry at them when they push someone, it's laughable. It's naive to expect perfect policing in such situations.
- voganmother42 6y agoSo you think perfection is a reasonable expectation for protestors? Your standards don’t seem consistent or reasonable.
- bobmcbobface 6y agohttps://youtu.be/HJeu3GEsOq8 https://youtu.be/HJeu3GEsOq8 Perfection.
- voganmother42 6y agoDo you believe this invalidates a cause, peaceful protest, or protestors?
- bobmcbobface 6y agoI believe that various examples of this and numerous people being killed invalidates the claim that the national guard shouldn't be on the street with clear curfews to protect life.
- voganmother42 6y agoI agree that it is a dangerous situation and also want to protect lives and the rights of citizens. Are safety and the right to peacefully assemble so at odds? The national guard protecting the lives and rights of its citizens is a far cry from being dominated as a part of a battle space. If we consider that there may be substance to other viewpoints as opposed to only opposition to our own we could work at addressing some of the root or common goals instead of focusing on division. Why don’t states and or citizens feel comfortable utilizing the national guard? Is it reasonable to fear an escalation which may place the American people and their constitutional rights in jeopardy? Are there approaches that would deescalate the situation that should be favored over those which risk even greater division (in particular between the citizens and the military )?
- bobmcbobface 6y agoI mean establishing a curfew during the night, not stopping peaceful protest.
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- diogenescynic 6y agoThe proportion of looters vs protestors is much lower than bad cops to good cops. If you are going to let a few bad apples spoil the bunch, why are you not saying the same thing about cops? If it’s about the cost, then why aren’t you complaining about the $5 trillion in looting that Congress just passed to redistribute wealth upwards? Or did you just watch a Fox News clip and get mad about what they want you to?
- fr2null 6y agoHow do you know this? I'm not saying this is not the case. But how do you know this? I suspect that there are a lot of good police men, just like there are a lot of good protesters. How do you come to the conclusion that there are more of one than the other?
- mindslight 6y agoWhen a video of a cop murdering someone comes to a department's attention, they're not immediately arrested on suspicion of murder. When one cop from a group smashes a car window, the others don't arrest the perp for vandalism. When a cop shoots peaceful protestors engaging in constitutionally protected speech with flashbangs, tear gas, or rubber bullets, they're not immediately arrested for assault and battery. All of these incidents indicate that these departments are at least half full of corrupt cops, whether by individual morals or institutional policy.
- babycake 6y agoAnd when these bad cops are protected from prosecution across the entire country, it's no longer about a single bad cop in a barrel of apples from an isolated tree. It becomes an institution encouraging bad policing, a systemic issue. And when you look at who funds the police...
- mindslight 6y agoRather than paint the entire country with one brush, we need to focus on individual jurisdictions. There are many police departments that are facilitating the protestors exercising their rights, speaking with protestors about their concerns, even showing support, etc. These are likely departments where if an individual cop makes some off the cuff racist remark, they're called out by their peers. We need to give credit where credit is due.
- viewer5 6y agoWhich cities burned down?
- mtnGoat 6y agoexactly, not a single one! what cant people stick to facts and speak without exaggerating i wonder.
- bobmcbobface 6y agohttps://youtu.be/jCq-eD3Fdmo https://youtu.be/jCq-eD3Fdmo
- mtnGoat 6y agobuilding != city thanks for playing though.
- pstuart 6y agoIt's a tell when someone comments on the ongoing civil unrest and their only concern is the violence from some protesters.
- bobmcbobface 6y agoYeah, this isn't concerning: https://youtu.be/HJeu3GEsOq8 https://youtu.be/HJeu3GEsOq8
- pstuart 6y agoIt is concerning. It's also an incomplete narrative. The protests are grounded in legitimate grievances, and engaging in public protest is a core right of the citizenry. The violence effectively delegitimizes these protests in the eyes of millions of fellow citizens. I'm guessing that you may be one of them. There are serious systemic issues with policing in America and if one only focuses on the bad actors on the "opposing side" then there is no dialog, only opposing monologues.
- hughmungus 6y agoWhat grievances?
- pstuart 6y agoI'm sorry but I don't believe that you are engaging in good faith. If you are serious about discussing this I can answer your question, but from your comment history and your new account I don't see any value in even trying.
- bobmcbobface 6y agoPeaceful protest is peaceful protest. It's a democratic right and always legitimate. Failing to properly report the scale of violence and looting whilst simultaneously questioning the legitimacy of the response to it though exposes the media narrative for what it is, not objective.
- badrabbit 6y agoI hope there is as at least as much of that pretending and sweeping under the rug as there us when phrases like "most cops are good" ,"it's only a few bad apples" are used and when cops are not charged with a crime after being filmed in broad daylight commiting heinous crimes that would cause any civilian to rot in prison, or after being charged they don't even make it to trial because a grand jury preemptively aquitted them. I think all that counts as sweeping under the rug. But it seems you care more about property than human life being swept under the rug? As someone said, maybe the right perspective is "it's too bad all this property is needlessly destroyed, but how can we let so many innocent people die, protestors get assaulted for no reason, journalists losing their eyes and being beaten and detained on american soil for doing their job?" Priorities my friend, says a lot about you. I am sure a country that can afford multi trillion dollar wars and bailouts can handle a few insured propertied burning down. Heck, some people might even profit with the right insurance.
- hexagone 6y agoDemocratic mechanisms to address these issues already exist, and they are in the hands of each State's legislature. If you hold the Federal Government responsible, then you want to put this power in the hands of Federal Legislature. Are you ready to forsake the federal structure of US Government?
- mindslight 6y agoThat is exactly what these protests are - part of the democratic process. To show the majority, who are not affected by police criminality through a combination of race and chance, the severity of the grievances by the minority who are. As for the decentralization argument - I really don't want to be on this side of the states' rights debate, but that ship sailed a long time ago with regards to civil rights. It's not terribly unreasonable that individual rights are protected by state governments ior the federal government when an individual state is unwilling. Although we are currently witnessing a direct failure mode of this centralization, with the federal government having gone AWOL with regards to enforcing the law and even inciting lawlessness.
- zepto 6y agoCities are not going up in flames.
- bobmcbobface 6y agohttps://youtu.be/jCq-eD3Fdmo https://youtu.be/jCq-eD3Fdmo It's mostly peaceful going up in flames...
- zepto 6y agoA few fires is obviously not cities going up in flames.
- bobmcbobface 6y agoWhat's the normal status of a city in terms of being on fire? What's your standard here - Dresden?
- zepto 6y ago‘being on fire’ seems like an attempt to move the goalposts. No cities in America are ‘going up in flames’ or ‘on fire’. A few fires started as a result of the protests. Making it sound like some post-apocalyptic or wartime scene is just disinformation. On the other hand we are wistnessing the largest set of mostly peaceful political demonstrations since the 60’s.
- egberts1 6y agoReminds me of the CIA and their bemoaning the decline of its US manufacturing base (also on WaPo) — while true, it’s not encompassing enough to show the resilience of global market (even during COVID-19 crises). This article is also based on scant socio-political vector data so it needs more parallels to reach that causation level. For now, it’s a bare correlation and merely coincidence.
- pjc50 6y agoHaving invaded, destabilised, and collapsed most of South America and other parts of the world, all that is left is for America to destabilise itself. Of course the CIA know what this looks like.
- jialutu 6y agoLet's also not forget if this was in any other country, the US would be sanctioning them already, making a bad situation even worse! I am personally very glad to see this potentially being the end of the US hegemony.
- ofcrookedtimber 6y agoThe issue of "What comes after US hegemony?" should trouble you even more. I can envision a lot of scenarios that are worse than now.
- thatguy0900 6y agoTime to start learning Chinese?
- bobmcbobface 6y agoHow do you say 'how do I keep my internal organs AND my religion' in mandarin?
- craftinator 6y agoPower vacuums are a very dangerous thing. This is how ISIS/ISIL came to power after all...
- jialutu 6y agoWhat troubles me more is the idea that you think there needs or has to be some sort of hegemony in the first place. I personally know of scenarios that is already far worse in the world today because of this idea of someone having to uphold some sort of hegemony.
- wolfgke 6y agoArchive.is: http://archive.is/CAvh4 http://archive.is/CAvh4
- shirak_untel 6y agoIf even the CIA is worried you’re going too far, that says a lot.
- 082349872349872 6y agoIf we're coup-watching, the military has sided with the people: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23412986 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23412986 That's usually a good sign. Is there any song in the US currently equivalent to "We Shall Overcome" or "Winds of Change" or "Перемен"?
- pstuart 6y agoIt's good to have some hope, but to date there's been a consistent refutation of that. I'm among those that believe that the coup is already complete and it's now a matter of them holding on to it.
- bobmcbobface 6y agoThis article makes sense in the absence of proper national reporting on the level of looting and rioting. For those that have seen it first hand, the national guard on the streets is a relief.
- mtnGoat 6y agospeak for yourself, I've seen it first hand and the national guard is NOT a relief. I don't need militarized police in my streets, thank you.
- bobmcbobface 6y agoYou prefer a bit of the good old ultraviolence? https://youtu.be/HJeu3GEsOq8 https://youtu.be/HJeu3GEsOq8
- mtnGoat 6y agoi can show lots of cherry picked examples of national guard making bad decisions too, what is your point? also the man in the linked video wasn't very smart, he took a bat to a fight(with an angry mob) severely outnumbered... thats poor tactical decision making. Sometimes the best answer is to sit back and watch it all go down, and make the insurance claim.