6 ms·

Don’t want to sully the conversation here, but I want to raise an important point - so @feross, please stick with it. I gave my daughter (6) my iPad for ten mi

by aframe 6y ago

Don’t want to sully the conversation here, but I want to raise an important point - so @feross, please stick with it. I gave my daughter (6) my iPad for ten minutes this morning and put her on a site to draw minecraft skins. I took a call and took my eyes off the device (but not daughter) for about five minutes while I paced around the room. When I sat back next to her, she somehow ended up on virus Café and was in a video chat with someone. This scared the absolute hell out of me as I knew nothing about the site, I wondered how on Earth she’d managed to stumble on it so quickly, how she’d been able to allow access to device cameras so easily and, ya know, “Virus Café”. To get around it, I’ve default denied mic and camera access and had to have a serious conversation about stranger danger. I accept my own lapse in this, but to mitigate it happening to other kids who don’t have helicopter parents, can you please put some form of test before you ask for camera settings? Some form of multiplication or division, or asking for the year you were born would be a massive boost to safeguarding young kids.

Accacin 6y ago
Well it must have been in your web history, I very much doubt she typed the URL in. You could have been visiting anything and she could have accidentally navigated there. For me, it's a very odd solution to a problem that we have to answer a question before allowing our webcam to be used. I would never set my webcam and mic to be allowed by default, and if I ever give my laptop or device to anyone to search for something I'll put them in a private browser for their privacy aswell as mine. Either way, I can probably not even begin to understand the responsibilities of being a parent, but if some safeguard is put into this one site, what about the next site you visit that has a similar idea? You're in the same situation again - and there's no shortage of websites for people to chat to each other via webcam.
- aframe 6y ago
  To confirm, it’s not allowed by default, it’s set to always ask by default - which was just a case of clicking allow or not. And it most certainly wasn’t in my history. I’d never heard of it before and it’s my work iPad which she doesn’t know the passcode to. No, parenting is hard, especially so right now. Every day is a mix of work, and guilt that the kid of a full time working family isn’t getting everything she needs. Never-the-less, devices are common place now. And it’s not uncommon for children to play on them. She does have a device that only has age appropriate learning apps on, and parental controls. These apps have the above mentioned checks in place to stop kids getting into the settings. This site has a very child friendly design; bright buttons, emojis flying around. Isn’t it at least responsible to make sure that young people can’t access it?
  - AnyTimeTraveler 6y ago
    If a child isn't old enough to comprehend and deal with most of the internet, then they should not have access to it or only with someone to teach them. In my opinion, the web is a tool and should be learned like a powersaw or a drill. I would just be annoyed if I had to answer 127 * 4 on my phone and would leave the site, because it is a ergonomic hurdle to something that I'm just mildly curious about.
    - aframe 6y ago
      As a parent (there are a lot of them, but I only speak for myself), I'd much rather someone be annoyed and not try something because a trivial question gets in the way, than a child getting put in front of a predator so easily. EDIT: Potentially.
      - thih9 6y ago
        As far as I know browsers and apps with unrestricted internet access aren’t rated for children, in my opinion this shouldn’t change.
wolco 6y ago
Give her a kid friendly phone not your phone with your history and preferences.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  I really don't think six year olds need their own phone yet...
  - aframe 6y ago
    I agree.
  - y-c-o-m-b 6y ago
    "Kid friendly phone" usually means an older device that is disconnected from service and only has access to wifi (if even that) and apps designed for kids in their age range. I don't think they were suggesting giving the kid an actual full-service phone.
iamnotcorrect 6y ago
I am 40, my first access to a computer was when i was about 4 maybe? I wrote my first program (10 print "hello", 20 goto 10) at 6.. IMHO this early introduction massively impacted my ability to understand tech and assimilate information around me. While i think that monitoring usage of devices is important, the idea of not giving a 6yo an ipad or similar when in all likelihood their familiarity with these concepts will benefit them greatly is a bit naive. So while i don't know the answer, i 100% agree that the solution is not to leave it all to parent.. I would expect a cashier to question my 15yo buying booze, even if i had said it was okay - this is basically the same thing imho. or a bit like the high voltage warning signs behind barbed wire and locked gates in electricity sub-stations.. or weak roof signs that only burglars will ever see - ultimately we want to minimise the harm.
- vasco 6y ago
  Did your machines always have parental controls for you and did you ever read or look at things your parents wouldn't approve on the internet or in real life growing up?
- y-c-o-m-b 6y ago
  Same here - almost 40 - I was exposed to electronics at a very young age and that was an early catalyst into becoming a software developer. Too often people argue for an all or nothing approach, when there's a good compromise in-between. Parenting is complicated. There's thousands of books on the subject and probably thousands on the subject of electronic use for kids. These comments telling the OP they can't change every website so "it's not worth trying" are not productive. There's nothing wrong with requesting this feature from Virus Cafe. Maybe it's something they were planning on doing anyway. You never know and it doesn't hurt to ask. What if the change is implemented and it becomes a web-design standard for other sites to adopt? Every idea starts somewhere and HN is a good platform for it to start in.
- nfoz 6y ago
  Devices were a lot safer for us as kids when they weren't connected to the aggressive messy warzone that is the modern internet.
erfgh 6y ago
> I gave my daughter (6) my iPad for ten minutes this morning There's your problem. Just don't do that. But if you can't avoid it, disconnect the internet before you do it.
- aframe 6y ago
  That’s not the problem though is it. I said I accept my lapse, but such easy access into a world of video sharing should have at least cursory controls for children. My lapse isn’t in question, it’s the many other children around the world who will be shoved in front of a device and forgotten about, and how this site does nothing to protect them. We’re in lockdown, myself and my wife work full time and then some. My daughter wanted to paint minecraft skins while I was sat with her. Within two minutes she was on this site somehow and sharing video with someone from the states. That’s not cricket.
  - thih9 6y ago
    I understand that you're emotional, but I don't follow the logic. Why would you like to change a random site? Wouldn't she end up on a different one next time? As mentioned elsewhere ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23415324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23415324 ), it seems easier to configure the iPad so that it's safe to give it to your daughter.
  - wolco 6y ago
    Would you give her your gun or knive or porn collection of sword collection? Would you leave her in front of a tv with access to the porn channel. Your the weak link here.
  - chris_overseas 6y ago
    But that's how the internet works. If not this site, then it'll be another, and another, and another... You are just one URL away from violence, porn, racism, drugs, you name it. Are you going to ask all those millions of sites to put age restrictions and barriers up too? Governments have tried and failed. I'd recommend directing your energy in to setting up whitelists and/or other monitoring software and teaching your daughter to become internet savvy, because what you are trying to do is fight a battle that you simply cannot win. Personally, putting up any sort of age test is just another annoyance and barrier to entry that makes me more likely to give up trying the site and turn my attention elsewhere. Most kids are smart enough to figure out how to bypass this sort of thing quickly anyway - as I did back in the day, getting past the questions to gain access to Leisure Suit Larry!
pachico 6y ago
I agree. On the other side, some might argue that kids shouldn't be given tablets or phones if hey don't need them. There's a lot of discussion about it and, although not complete consensus, most pediatricians seem to discourage so early access to screens. Btw, I'm a father too.
- pachico 6y ago
  It seems the demotion show has already started... Anyhow, WHO also discourages it https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/24-04-2019-to-grow-up-healthy-children-need-to-sit-less-and-play-more https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/24-04-2019-to-grow-up-h... It's not a ridiculous idea.
londons_explore 6y ago
Parental controls and a list of allowed websites and apps would have solved this. There is no way you can police every site on the internet, so it's best not to even try. Just pick a few you trust and whitelist those.
entwife 6y ago
Don't give your young child an Internet-connected device with microphone and camera capability. Just, don't.

by aframe 6y ago

Accacin 6y ago

Well it must have been in your web history, I very much doubt she typed the URL in. You could have been visiting anything and she could have accidentally navigated there. For me, it's a very odd solution to a problem that we have to answer a question before allowing our webcam to be used. I would never set my webcam and mic to be allowed by default, and if I ever give my laptop or device to anyone to search for something I'll put them in a private browser for their privacy aswell as mine. Either way, I can probably not even begin to understand the responsibilities of being a parent, but if some safeguard is put into this one site, what about the next site you visit that has a similar idea? You're in the same situation again - and there's no shortage of websites for people to chat to each other via webcam.

aframe 6y ago
To confirm, it’s not allowed by default, it’s set to always ask by default - which was just a case of clicking allow or not. And it most certainly wasn’t in my history. I’d never heard of it before and it’s my work iPad which she doesn’t know the passcode to. No, parenting is hard, especially so right now. Every day is a mix of work, and guilt that the kid of a full time working family isn’t getting everything she needs. Never-the-less, devices are common place now. And it’s not uncommon for children to play on them. She does have a device that only has age appropriate learning apps on, and parental controls. These apps have the above mentioned checks in place to stop kids getting into the settings. This site has a very child friendly design; bright buttons, emojis flying around. Isn’t it at least responsible to make sure that young people can’t access it?
- AnyTimeTraveler 6y ago
  If a child isn't old enough to comprehend and deal with most of the internet, then they should not have access to it or only with someone to teach them. In my opinion, the web is a tool and should be learned like a powersaw or a drill. I would just be annoyed if I had to answer 127 * 4 on my phone and would leave the site, because it is a ergonomic hurdle to something that I'm just mildly curious about.
  - aframe 6y ago
    As a parent (there are a lot of them, but I only speak for myself), I'd much rather someone be annoyed and not try something because a trivial question gets in the way, than a child getting put in front of a predator so easily. EDIT: Potentially.
    - thih9 6y ago
      As far as I know browsers and apps with unrestricted internet access aren’t rated for children, in my opinion this shouldn’t change.

wolco 6y ago

Give her a kid friendly phone not your phone with your history and preferences.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago
I really don't think six year olds need their own phone yet...
- aframe 6y ago
  I agree.
- y-c-o-m-b 6y ago
  "Kid friendly phone" usually means an older device that is disconnected from service and only has access to wifi (if even that) and apps designed for kids in their age range. I don't think they were suggesting giving the kid an actual full-service phone.

iamnotcorrect 6y ago

I am 40, my first access to a computer was when i was about 4 maybe? I wrote my first program (10 print "hello", 20 goto 10) at 6.. IMHO this early introduction massively impacted my ability to understand tech and assimilate information around me. While i think that monitoring usage of devices is important, the idea of not giving a 6yo an ipad or similar when in all likelihood their familiarity with these concepts will benefit them greatly is a bit naive. So while i don't know the answer, i 100% agree that the solution is not to leave it all to parent.. I would expect a cashier to question my 15yo buying booze, even if i had said it was okay - this is basically the same thing imho. or a bit like the high voltage warning signs behind barbed wire and locked gates in electricity sub-stations.. or weak roof signs that only burglars will ever see - ultimately we want to minimise the harm.

vasco 6y ago
Did your machines always have parental controls for you and did you ever read or look at things your parents wouldn't approve on the internet or in real life growing up?
y-c-o-m-b 6y ago
Same here - almost 40 - I was exposed to electronics at a very young age and that was an early catalyst into becoming a software developer. Too often people argue for an all or nothing approach, when there's a good compromise in-between. Parenting is complicated. There's thousands of books on the subject and probably thousands on the subject of electronic use for kids. These comments telling the OP they can't change every website so "it's not worth trying" are not productive. There's nothing wrong with requesting this feature from Virus Cafe. Maybe it's something they were planning on doing anyway. You never know and it doesn't hurt to ask. What if the change is implemented and it becomes a web-design standard for other sites to adopt? Every idea starts somewhere and HN is a good platform for it to start in.
nfoz 6y ago
Devices were a lot safer for us as kids when they weren't connected to the aggressive messy warzone that is the modern internet.

erfgh 6y ago

> I gave my daughter (6) my iPad for ten minutes this morning There's your problem. Just don't do that. But if you can't avoid it, disconnect the internet before you do it.

aframe 6y ago
That’s not the problem though is it. I said I accept my lapse, but such easy access into a world of video sharing should have at least cursory controls for children. My lapse isn’t in question, it’s the many other children around the world who will be shoved in front of a device and forgotten about, and how this site does nothing to protect them. We’re in lockdown, myself and my wife work full time and then some. My daughter wanted to paint minecraft skins while I was sat with her. Within two minutes she was on this site somehow and sharing video with someone from the states. That’s not cricket.
- thih9 6y ago
  I understand that you're emotional, but I don't follow the logic. Why would you like to change a random site? Wouldn't she end up on a different one next time? As mentioned elsewhere ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23415324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23415324 ), it seems easier to configure the iPad so that it's safe to give it to your daughter.
- wolco 6y ago
  Would you give her your gun or knive or porn collection of sword collection? Would you leave her in front of a tv with access to the porn channel. Your the weak link here.
- chris_overseas 6y ago
  But that's how the internet works. If not this site, then it'll be another, and another, and another... You are just one URL away from violence, porn, racism, drugs, you name it. Are you going to ask all those millions of sites to put age restrictions and barriers up too? Governments have tried and failed. I'd recommend directing your energy in to setting up whitelists and/or other monitoring software and teaching your daughter to become internet savvy, because what you are trying to do is fight a battle that you simply cannot win. Personally, putting up any sort of age test is just another annoyance and barrier to entry that makes me more likely to give up trying the site and turn my attention elsewhere. Most kids are smart enough to figure out how to bypass this sort of thing quickly anyway - as I did back in the day, getting past the questions to gain access to Leisure Suit Larry!

pachico 6y ago

I agree. On the other side, some might argue that kids shouldn't be given tablets or phones if hey don't need them. There's a lot of discussion about it and, although not complete consensus, most pediatricians seem to discourage so early access to screens. Btw, I'm a father too.

pachico 6y ago
It seems the demotion show has already started... Anyhow, WHO also discourages it https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/24-04-2019-to-grow-up-healthy-children-need-to-sit-less-and-play-more https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/24-04-2019-to-grow-up-h... It's not a ridiculous idea.

londons_explore 6y ago

Parental controls and a list of allowed websites and apps would have solved this. There is no way you can police every site on the internet, so it's best not to even try. Just pick a few you trust and whitelist those.

entwife 6y ago

Don't give your young child an Internet-connected device with microphone and camera capability. Just, don't.