7 ms·

U.S. trails most developed countries in voter turnout (2018)

28 points by wickedwiesel 6y ago

wickedwiesel 6y ago
Given the current discussion on political apathy in the US I think this data fits well into this pattern. Looking at the voter turnout for United States (2016) of the of voting-age population you have merely 55.70% voting. (For comparison, the scale goes up to 87.21% in Belgium). Only roughly HALF of the population casts their votes in federal elections. Since a lot of the current policing decisions are made on a state or local level where voter turnout is even worse, this is a democracy in crisis. What could be the drivers for this? I think you get a hint if you look at the other column, where you see the % of voter turnout based on registration. In most countries listed here, these numbers are almost identical because you are registered as a voter by default if you are a citizen. OR, if you are in the US, the % climbs to a whopping 86.80%, illustrating what a negative impact this system has. Let people vote. Get rid of this ridiculus competition to cut and slice voter districts to party needs (gerry-mandering) and stop suppressing voters by other means if you want a system that actually allows politicians to work for their voters and not for donors / special interest groups that keep you paid.
- zrail 6y ago
  > if you want a system that actually allows politicians to work for their voters The people in power don’t actually want this.
  - jahaja 6y ago
    Trump said it out loud didn't he? That the republican party would cease to exist, or similar, if voting-by-mail were widely allowed.
    - mtberatwork 6y ago
      Yes, he tweeted it out even not too long ago: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1266172570983940101?s=20 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/12661725709839401...
    - DFHippie 6y ago
      And this isn't an idea that Trump came up with himself, he's just said the quiet part out loud. So, if we take it as given that Republican politicians and strategists are motivated to restrict the franchise by the same belief this means they believe they cannot obtain power under a properly administered democracy yet they believe they have a right to govern. There are an awful lot of people in the US with only a very transactional relationship to the idea of democracy.
    - willis936 6y ago
      It’s what we all know: current GOP ideals do not line up with majority representation. The GOP would be forced to change its policy to fall in line with the people’s will: a true tragedy, I know. We currently have a tyranny of minority.
      - C1sc0cat 6y ago
        That's because of entryism by far right activists - the sensible Republicans need to talk to Tony Blair and Gordan Brown about that.
      - syshum 6y ago
        Would this imply that the democrat party does align with the majority? If you believe that, this is not my experience. For me personally, as a libertarian, I would say I agree with about 60% with the GOP platform, and about 20-30% with the Democrat platform. this used to be higher but the recent misadventure of the democrats in to "democratic socialism" and other left authoritarian policy positions has seen me really want to pull back from and oppose the democratic party more so then I have in the past
        willis936 6y ago
        In this moment, to me, it seems strange to agree with 60% of republican policy but to to disagree with 70% democratic policy on the grounds of authoritarianism.
        syshum 6y ago
        Well lets take a few issues. For example by and large I agree with the current actions of the Republicans and Trump in the realm of Foreign / trade Policy. While I am not a huge fans of tariff's our trade agreements have been lopsided not in the favor of the US for many decades now. It was not in anyway a fair or "free" trade, they here gifts to large multinational corporate looking to lower labor costs and avoid environmental regulations that their smaller competitors could not I am also 100% anti-intervention so Trump pulling the military out of many nations I am 100% in agreement with, something the Democrats just a few years ago also agreed with but modern democrats can not be seen sharing any position with the Orange Man at all, ever. Now on the domestic Front. I am largely in-favor of the Corporate Tax Cuts, Largely in favor of most of the Deregulation that has occurred. I have largely agreed with Trumps Supreme Court Nominees. Immigration and Law Enforcement is the 2 area's I disagree with the GOP on, with immigration however democrats have gone off the deep in wanting to open up all Social Welfare programs to anyone that want to come here from anywhere. I 100% oppose that as it is economically unfeasible. I support the idea of open immigration as long as spending on Social welfare programs is controlled. I also oppose the creation of a new Universal Healthcare entitlement which is a cornerstone of the Democrat party platform When it comes to domestic law Enforcement I oppose the GOP almost completely.
- bildung 6y ago
  One easy change with major effects (that is law in almost all OECD countries IIRC) would be to have votes only on sundays or official holidays. Having to vote on a work day disproportionally disadvantages workers.
  - js8 6y ago
    Also, what's up with these horrible queues at polling places? In my country (Czechia), I rarely have to wait when I come to the polling place. We have one polling place (one ballot box, one comitee, about two places where you're required by law to fill your ballot) per maybe couple thousands citizens. These places are usually in a local school for the district. During the election, they are open Friday afternoon till 8 PM and Saturday till 2 PM. We have fully tabulated results by late Saturday. We don't have to register, the verification is done through a central registry, we just have to prove our identity at the polling site. Frankly, I think U.S. deserves a comprehensive electoral reform. Americans should demand it in a general strike.
docdeek 6y ago
Interesting that % of registered voters that vote in the US is incredibly high (86%) even if the number of registered voters is low (hence the low % of eligible voters actually voting). 86% is right up there with countries like Belgium and Australia where voting is compulsory and the obligation to vote (or turn up at a polling place…) is enforced. Switzerland seems odd on the face of it to me - what explains low turnout for registered voters? Too many elections/votes? Voter fatigue?
- jahaja 6y ago
  Why do people even need to register to vote? In Sweden every eligible voter receive their "voting card" by mail a couple of weeks before an election.
  - KingOfCoders 6y ago
    Same in Germany, always astonished about the US system.
  - docdeek 6y ago
    You still have to register in Australia, too, even if it is compulsory to vote.
  - vinay427 6y ago
    There's no common official record on where someone lives in the US, as well as many other countries in the anglosphere. You don't officially register at an address when you move there, although updating drivers licenses which are state issued are sometimes optionally connected to voter registrations (which are often county or municipality-managed).
    - wmkn 6y ago
      > There's no common official record on where someone lives in the US When a US colleague transferred from our US office to our European office they were surprised and a little shocked that they were required to register their address with the local authorities. They felt that the government had no right to know where they lived. For me, as a European, I was quite surprised about the opposite. How is it possible to have a functioning government without proper records about who lives where? Only after the realization that the US does not keep records about who lives where did things like voter registration make sense to me.
klmadfejno 6y ago
This should surprise nobody. I live in a blue state. My vote is practically meaningless because of the electoral college system. Yes, there's some signalling to be done, but on affecting the short term outcome? Nada. MLK has a great quote, "“Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will." That's exactly what our current presidential race offers to many young people. Trump is perceived as the guy with absolute misunderstanding and ill will with corrupt greed. But Joe Biden's a turd. He was pro segregation in the 70s. That should be an absolute non-starter to many people, but here he is as the "best option" with a healthy political career 40 years later. I don't especially believe he's a racist individual but his recent comments show he has grossly shallow understanding of race relations, among other things. The only thing that could disenfranchise me more would be concern that the actual voting process had been compromised.
- KingOfCoders 6y ago
  Voting is a citizen act and never meaningless.
  - klmadfejno 6y ago
    It is useful for signalling. It is meaningless on the actual election outcome. If everyone disenfranchised voted for people they thought were good but unlikely to win, you'd maybe get enough of a signal to change the party line in future elections. But that's incredibly hard and similarly meaningless at small scale. Getting people to vote for first order effects is difficult. Try getting them to vote for second order effects. There's no political machine to get out the vote for virtuous ideas that have no chance of winning in the right now.
    - specialist 6y ago
      Voting gives the process legitimacy. Consent of the governed and all that.
      - klmadfejno 6y ago
Synaesthesia 6y ago
The US also lacks a broad based workers party like a Labour Party in UK or Australia. The people that don’t vote probably would vote for such a party.
- vinay427 6y ago
  If anything, the Democratic party is far too broad already even compared to a modern Labour party. I think the platform is more alienating than the breadth, in this case.
- C1sc0cat 6y ago
  The "labour" party in Australia is not really a "workers" party
hanniabu 6y ago
I can tell you the reason I don't vote is because of voter suppression and manipulation.
AlgorithmicTime 6y ago
I'm of the opinion that more people voting is not a good thing.
neallindsay 6y ago
U.S. leads most developed countries in voter suppression
zeveb 6y ago
Is this really relevant, though? Republican democracy means that the people are sovereign within the laws they themselves have set up and may change; universal suffrage means that everyone[0] may vote. But isn't the choice not to vote itself just as much of a signal as voting? I know that some countries have compulsory voting, but that has always rubbed me the wrong way. If someone simply wishes to sit out, that seems to me to be his right. Given the reasonably-established effect of weather on elections[1], I am uncertain that forced votes are particularly high-information votes. 0: well, not children or felons 1: e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5463178/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5463178/
- wickedwiesel 6y ago
  In direct response to your first point, I would argue that it is you right to not vote. That being said, as it is THE fundamental right in democracies, you should not need to jump through any hoops whatsoever to vote. Especially as evidence suggests this leads to the people in power making use of that to stay in power. On a side note: the idea that felons are unable to vote strikes me as totally wrong. What's the reasoning behind that? Why on Earth would you do that to a person? I cannot think of any scenario where this does not only have negatives consequences (alienating convicted felons even further from communities etc.). The only upside is pandering to those who feel that punishment is an important aspect of criminal justice. (This in itself deserves debate.)
fallingfrog 6y ago
It’s intentional, of course. Suppressing the vote of young or nonwhite people is a well established practice in America. Oftentimes voting districts are so gerrymandered that everybody knows which way the district will vote anyway so why bother? And voter registration laws make it very time consuming to prove residency for people who have to move often.

28 points by wickedwiesel 6y ago

Given the current discussion on political apathy in the US I think this data fits well into this pattern. Looking at the voter turnout for United States (2016) of the of voting-age population you have merely 55.70% voting. (For comparison, the scale goes up to 87.21% in Belgium). Only roughly HALF of the population casts their votes in federal elections. Since a lot of the current policing decisions are made on a state or local level where voter turnout is even worse, this is a democracy in crisis. What could be the drivers for this? I think you get a hint if you look at the other column, where you see the % of voter turnout based on registration. In most countries listed here, these numbers are almost identical because you are registered as a voter by default if you are a citizen. OR, if you are in the US, the % climbs to a whopping 86.80%, illustrating what a negative impact this system has. Let people vote. Get rid of this ridiculus competition to cut and slice voter districts to party needs (gerry-mandering) and stop suppressing voters by other means if you want a system that actually allows politicians to work for their voters and not for donors / special interest groups that keep you paid.

zrail 6y ago
> if you want a system that actually allows politicians to work for their voters The people in power don’t actually want this.
- jahaja 6y ago
  Trump said it out loud didn't he? That the republican party would cease to exist, or similar, if voting-by-mail were widely allowed.
  - mtberatwork 6y ago
    Yes, he tweeted it out even not too long ago: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1266172570983940101?s=20 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/12661725709839401...
  - DFHippie 6y ago
    And this isn't an idea that Trump came up with himself, he's just said the quiet part out loud. So, if we take it as given that Republican politicians and strategists are motivated to restrict the franchise by the same belief this means they believe they cannot obtain power under a properly administered democracy yet they believe they have a right to govern. There are an awful lot of people in the US with only a very transactional relationship to the idea of democracy.
  - willis936 6y ago
    It’s what we all know: current GOP ideals do not line up with majority representation. The GOP would be forced to change its policy to fall in line with the people’s will: a true tragedy, I know. We currently have a tyranny of minority.
    - C1sc0cat 6y ago
      That's because of entryism by far right activists - the sensible Republicans need to talk to Tony Blair and Gordan Brown about that.
    - syshum 6y ago
      Would this imply that the democrat party does align with the majority? If you believe that, this is not my experience. For me personally, as a libertarian, I would say I agree with about 60% with the GOP platform, and about 20-30% with the Democrat platform. this used to be higher but the recent misadventure of the democrats in to "democratic socialism" and other left authoritarian policy positions has seen me really want to pull back from and oppose the democratic party more so then I have in the past
      - willis936 6y ago
        In this moment, to me, it seems strange to agree with 60% of republican policy but to to disagree with 70% democratic policy on the grounds of authoritarianism.
        syshum 6y ago
        Well lets take a few issues. For example by and large I agree with the current actions of the Republicans and Trump in the realm of Foreign / trade Policy. While I am not a huge fans of tariff's our trade agreements have been lopsided not in the favor of the US for many decades now. It was not in anyway a fair or "free" trade, they here gifts to large multinational corporate looking to lower labor costs and avoid environmental regulations that their smaller competitors could not I am also 100% anti-intervention so Trump pulling the military out of many nations I am 100% in agreement with, something the Democrats just a few years ago also agreed with but modern democrats can not be seen sharing any position with the Orange Man at all, ever. Now on the domestic Front. I am largely in-favor of the Corporate Tax Cuts, Largely in favor of most of the Deregulation that has occurred. I have largely agreed with Trumps Supreme Court Nominees. Immigration and Law Enforcement is the 2 area's I disagree with the GOP on, with immigration however democrats have gone off the deep in wanting to open up all Social Welfare programs to anyone that want to come here from anywhere. I 100% oppose that as it is economically unfeasible. I support the idea of open immigration as long as spending on Social welfare programs is controlled. I also oppose the creation of a new Universal Healthcare entitlement which is a cornerstone of the Democrat party platform When it comes to domestic law Enforcement I oppose the GOP almost completely.
bildung 6y ago
One easy change with major effects (that is law in almost all OECD countries IIRC) would be to have votes only on sundays or official holidays. Having to vote on a work day disproportionally disadvantages workers.
- js8 6y ago
  Also, what's up with these horrible queues at polling places? In my country (Czechia), I rarely have to wait when I come to the polling place. We have one polling place (one ballot box, one comitee, about two places where you're required by law to fill your ballot) per maybe couple thousands citizens. These places are usually in a local school for the district. During the election, they are open Friday afternoon till 8 PM and Saturday till 2 PM. We have fully tabulated results by late Saturday. We don't have to register, the verification is done through a central registry, we just have to prove our identity at the polling site. Frankly, I think U.S. deserves a comprehensive electoral reform. Americans should demand it in a general strike.

docdeek 6y ago

Interesting that % of registered voters that vote in the US is incredibly high (86%) even if the number of registered voters is low (hence the low % of eligible voters actually voting). 86% is right up there with countries like Belgium and Australia where voting is compulsory and the obligation to vote (or turn up at a polling place…) is enforced. Switzerland seems odd on the face of it to me - what explains low turnout for registered voters? Too many elections/votes? Voter fatigue?

jahaja 6y ago
Why do people even need to register to vote? In Sweden every eligible voter receive their "voting card" by mail a couple of weeks before an election.
- KingOfCoders 6y ago
  Same in Germany, always astonished about the US system.
- docdeek 6y ago
  You still have to register in Australia, too, even if it is compulsory to vote.
- vinay427 6y ago
  There's no common official record on where someone lives in the US, as well as many other countries in the anglosphere. You don't officially register at an address when you move there, although updating drivers licenses which are state issued are sometimes optionally connected to voter registrations (which are often county or municipality-managed).
  - wmkn 6y ago
    > There's no common official record on where someone lives in the US When a US colleague transferred from our US office to our European office they were surprised and a little shocked that they were required to register their address with the local authorities. They felt that the government had no right to know where they lived. For me, as a European, I was quite surprised about the opposite. How is it possible to have a functioning government without proper records about who lives where? Only after the realization that the US does not keep records about who lives where did things like voter registration make sense to me.

klmadfejno 6y ago

This should surprise nobody. I live in a blue state. My vote is practically meaningless because of the electoral college system. Yes, there's some signalling to be done, but on affecting the short term outcome? Nada. MLK has a great quote, "“Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will." That's exactly what our current presidential race offers to many young people. Trump is perceived as the guy with absolute misunderstanding and ill will with corrupt greed. But Joe Biden's a turd. He was pro segregation in the 70s. That should be an absolute non-starter to many people, but here he is as the "best option" with a healthy political career 40 years later. I don't especially believe he's a racist individual but his recent comments show he has grossly shallow understanding of race relations, among other things. The only thing that could disenfranchise me more would be concern that the actual voting process had been compromised.

KingOfCoders 6y ago
Voting is a citizen act and never meaningless.
- klmadfejno 6y ago
  It is useful for signalling. It is meaningless on the actual election outcome. If everyone disenfranchised voted for people they thought were good but unlikely to win, you'd maybe get enough of a signal to change the party line in future elections. But that's incredibly hard and similarly meaningless at small scale. Getting people to vote for first order effects is difficult. Try getting them to vote for second order effects. There's no political machine to get out the vote for virtuous ideas that have no chance of winning in the right now.
  - specialist 6y ago
    Voting gives the process legitimacy. Consent of the governed and all that.
    - klmadfejno 6y ago

Synaesthesia 6y ago

The US also lacks a broad based workers party like a Labour Party in UK or Australia. The people that don’t vote probably would vote for such a party.

vinay427 6y ago
If anything, the Democratic party is far too broad already even compared to a modern Labour party. I think the platform is more alienating than the breadth, in this case.
C1sc0cat 6y ago
The "labour" party in Australia is not really a "workers" party

hanniabu 6y ago

I can tell you the reason I don't vote is because of voter suppression and manipulation.

AlgorithmicTime 6y ago

I'm of the opinion that more people voting is not a good thing.

neallindsay 6y ago

U.S. leads most developed countries in voter suppression

zeveb 6y ago

Is this really relevant, though? Republican democracy means that the people are sovereign within the laws they themselves have set up and may change; universal suffrage means that everyone[0] may vote. But isn't the choice not to vote itself just as much of a signal as voting? I know that some countries have compulsory voting, but that has always rubbed me the wrong way. If someone simply wishes to sit out, that seems to me to be his right. Given the reasonably-established effect of weather on elections[1], I am uncertain that forced votes are particularly high-information votes. 0: well, not children or felons 1: e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5463178/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5463178/

wickedwiesel 6y ago
In direct response to your first point, I would argue that it is you right to not vote. That being said, as it is THE fundamental right in democracies, you should not need to jump through any hoops whatsoever to vote. Especially as evidence suggests this leads to the people in power making use of that to stay in power. On a side note: the idea that felons are unable to vote strikes me as totally wrong. What's the reasoning behind that? Why on Earth would you do that to a person? I cannot think of any scenario where this does not only have negatives consequences (alienating convicted felons even further from communities etc.). The only upside is pandering to those who feel that punishment is an important aspect of criminal justice. (This in itself deserves debate.)

fallingfrog 6y ago

It’s intentional, of course. Suppressing the vote of young or nonwhite people is a well established practice in America. Oftentimes voting districts are so gerrymandered that everybody knows which way the district will vote anyway so why bother? And voter registration laws make it very time consuming to prove residency for people who have to move often.