5 ms·

I have followed the news in Sweden quite closely. I have never heard Anders Tegnell or anyone else från FHM say that they believe any significant herd immunity

by Ma8ee 6y ago

I have followed the news in Sweden quite closely. I have never heard Anders Tegnell or anyone else från FHM say that they believe any significant herd immunity is close or anything they are trying to achieve. This is a strawman!

CerebralCerb 6y ago
https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/coronaviruset/senaste-nytt-om-corona-i-sverige-folj-presstraffen/ https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/coronaviruset/senaste-nytt-...
- Ma8ee 6y ago
  https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/tegnell-finns-en-myt-om-total-flockimmunitet/ https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/tegnell-finns-en-myt-om-tot...
cinntaile 6y ago
While it is correct that they have never explicitly mentioned herd immunity, it is at least somewhat implied. Quite a few claims were made with regards to what percentage of the population in Stockholm have already had the disease, at one point Johan Giesecke even claimed 50% when mass serology testing becomes available.[0] Although we haven't really heard from him much lately. A study by the Swedish health organization was retracted recently as well, they were too optimistic about their immunity claims and it was based on a flawed study.[1] They have since put out a correct version. The most recent numbers say Stockholm is at about 7,3%.[2] This article is actually a pretty good representation of how they have been communicating. Something similar to flock immunity is implied while not actually being flock immunity. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfN2JWifLCY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfN2JWifLCY [1] https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/folkhalsomyndigheten-drar-tillbaka-rapport https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/folkhalsomyndigheten-drar... [2] https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/3Jyxmq/flockimmunitet-i-stockholm-kan-droja https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/3Jyxmq/flockimmunitet-i...
- Ma8ee 6y ago
  Neither of the text links you posted support what you say, rather the opposite. Do either Tom Britton or Johan Giesecke speak for FHM? I didn’t care to watch the 35 minute YouTube video to figure out what it says. A lot of people have been talking about herd immunity, but FHM has been quite clear from the start that they don’t think herd immunity will make Corona go away.
  - zosima 6y ago
    A lot of people have been talking about herd immunity, but FHM has been quite clear from the start that they don’t think herd immunity will make Corona go away. You are quite simply wrong. Here is an interview with Anders Tegnell from 16. march: https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/6j7vaO/anders-tegnell-hyllar-brittisk-tanke-kring-flockimmunitet-dit-vi-beh https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/6j7vaO/anders-tegnell-h... Flockimmunitet skulle därmed även kunna bli aktuellt i Sverige. – Vi har varit lite försiktiga med att använda det ordet för det andas ju lite att man har gett upp och det är ju inte alls det som det är frågan om, säger Anders Tegnell. – Men grundtanken börjar nog bli mer och mer relevant ju mer vi ser av det här viruset, att det är dit vi behöver komma. Vi kommer inte att få kontroll på det på något annat sätt. Translation: Herd immunity could therefore also be relevant for Sweden - We have been a little careful using that word [herd immunity], as it sounds a little like we have given up, and that's not true at all, says Tegnell. - But the basic idea becomes more and more relevant the more we see of this virus. We need to reach herd immunity. We are not going to be able to control this virus in any other way.
  - cinntaile 6y ago
    Tom Britton's research is used to base the policy of the Swedish health organization on, but he doesn't speak for them. In Johan Giesecke's case it's more difficult since he charges them for some of his interviews, so I lean more towards yes. You don't have to watch the entire video, you can just read the summary below the video. In Sweden the policy is to mostly let people do what they want (at least when compared to other countries), unless they're in a risk group then they should take some additional measures. You expose people that don't have a big risk of getting seriously ill to a disease, they become immune and the risk group can reduce their additional measures. I would say that's pretty similar to herd immunity even without it being explicitly called that. Right now I think that's an acceptable strategy[0], when this started there maybe were too many unknowns to go down this route? [0] There are some unstated assumptions here such as how long people would be immune against it, how many people have serious complications afterwards but don't die and so on, so it's definitely debatable.
zosima 6y ago
This is simply not true. Both Johan Giesecke (a consultant for Folkhälsomyndigheten, which is Tegnell's workplace) and Anders Tegnell has repeatedly been saying, that modelling suggests, herd immunity will occur in may. Along with many others, who are working at the Karolinska Institute, that are closely cooperating with Folkhälsomyndigheten, like the the professors Jan Albert, Anders Björkman and Tom Britton. Here is Johan Giesecke saying it in english: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOxITQQ8F3w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOxITQQ8F3w
- Ma8ee 6y ago
  Are any of the people in the video speaking for FHM? A lot of experts have said different things, and some of them have at one point or the other been paid by FHM. That doesn’t mean they speak for, or represents, FHM.
  - zosima 6y ago
    This is Johan Giesecke, a former state epidemiologist (Tegnell is the current state epidemiologist), who has been working closely with Tegnell on the epidemic. He apparently billed Folkhälsomyndigheten (FHM) for some of his interviews, as he thought himself speaking for FHM. FHM refused to pay after a journalist inquired into it. They said that interviews was not part of Giesecke's responsibilities. He answered that he had discussed the interviews and what he was going to say, with people in FHM, and therefore considered them part of his consultancy contract. Here is Tegnell saying there will be herd immunity in may, in swedish: https://www.nrk.no/urix/tegnell_-_-det-kan-bli-flokkimmunitet-i-stockholm-i-mai-1.14984679 https://www.nrk.no/urix/tegnell_-_-det-kan-bli-flokkimmunite... The situation is a mess, and it feels as though many people are trying to muddle the waters, by spreading confusion.

by Ma8ee 6y ago

CerebralCerb 6y ago

https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/coronaviruset/senaste-nytt-om-corona-i-sverige-folj-presstraffen/ https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/coronaviruset/senaste-nytt-...

Ma8ee 6y ago
https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/tegnell-finns-en-myt-om-total-flockimmunitet/ https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/tegnell-finns-en-myt-om-tot...

cinntaile 6y ago

While it is correct that they have never explicitly mentioned herd immunity, it is at least somewhat implied. Quite a few claims were made with regards to what percentage of the population in Stockholm have already had the disease, at one point Johan Giesecke even claimed 50% when mass serology testing becomes available.[0] Although we haven't really heard from him much lately. A study by the Swedish health organization was retracted recently as well, they were too optimistic about their immunity claims and it was based on a flawed study.[1] They have since put out a correct version. The most recent numbers say Stockholm is at about 7,3%.[2] This article is actually a pretty good representation of how they have been communicating. Something similar to flock immunity is implied while not actually being flock immunity. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfN2JWifLCY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfN2JWifLCY [1] https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/folkhalsomyndigheten-drar-tillbaka-rapport https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/folkhalsomyndigheten-drar... [2] https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/3Jyxmq/flockimmunitet-i-stockholm-kan-droja https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/3Jyxmq/flockimmunitet-i...

Ma8ee 6y ago
Neither of the text links you posted support what you say, rather the opposite. Do either Tom Britton or Johan Giesecke speak for FHM? I didn’t care to watch the 35 minute YouTube video to figure out what it says. A lot of people have been talking about herd immunity, but FHM has been quite clear from the start that they don’t think herd immunity will make Corona go away.
- zosima 6y ago
  A lot of people have been talking about herd immunity, but FHM has been quite clear from the start that they don’t think herd immunity will make Corona go away. You are quite simply wrong. Here is an interview with Anders Tegnell from 16. march: https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/6j7vaO/anders-tegnell-hyllar-brittisk-tanke-kring-flockimmunitet-dit-vi-beh https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/6j7vaO/anders-tegnell-h... Flockimmunitet skulle därmed även kunna bli aktuellt i Sverige. – Vi har varit lite försiktiga med att använda det ordet för det andas ju lite att man har gett upp och det är ju inte alls det som det är frågan om, säger Anders Tegnell. – Men grundtanken börjar nog bli mer och mer relevant ju mer vi ser av det här viruset, att det är dit vi behöver komma. Vi kommer inte att få kontroll på det på något annat sätt. Translation: Herd immunity could therefore also be relevant for Sweden - We have been a little careful using that word [herd immunity], as it sounds a little like we have given up, and that's not true at all, says Tegnell. - But the basic idea becomes more and more relevant the more we see of this virus. We need to reach herd immunity. We are not going to be able to control this virus in any other way.
- cinntaile 6y ago
  Tom Britton's research is used to base the policy of the Swedish health organization on, but he doesn't speak for them. In Johan Giesecke's case it's more difficult since he charges them for some of his interviews, so I lean more towards yes. You don't have to watch the entire video, you can just read the summary below the video. In Sweden the policy is to mostly let people do what they want (at least when compared to other countries), unless they're in a risk group then they should take some additional measures. You expose people that don't have a big risk of getting seriously ill to a disease, they become immune and the risk group can reduce their additional measures. I would say that's pretty similar to herd immunity even without it being explicitly called that. Right now I think that's an acceptable strategy[0], when this started there maybe were too many unknowns to go down this route? [0] There are some unstated assumptions here such as how long people would be immune against it, how many people have serious complications afterwards but don't die and so on, so it's definitely debatable.

zosima 6y ago

This is simply not true. Both Johan Giesecke (a consultant for Folkhälsomyndigheten, which is Tegnell's workplace) and Anders Tegnell has repeatedly been saying, that modelling suggests, herd immunity will occur in may. Along with many others, who are working at the Karolinska Institute, that are closely cooperating with Folkhälsomyndigheten, like the the professors Jan Albert, Anders Björkman and Tom Britton. Here is Johan Giesecke saying it in english: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOxITQQ8F3w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOxITQQ8F3w

Ma8ee 6y ago
Are any of the people in the video speaking for FHM? A lot of experts have said different things, and some of them have at one point or the other been paid by FHM. That doesn’t mean they speak for, or represents, FHM.
- zosima 6y ago
  This is Johan Giesecke, a former state epidemiologist (Tegnell is the current state epidemiologist), who has been working closely with Tegnell on the epidemic. He apparently billed Folkhälsomyndigheten (FHM) for some of his interviews, as he thought himself speaking for FHM. FHM refused to pay after a journalist inquired into it. They said that interviews was not part of Giesecke's responsibilities. He answered that he had discussed the interviews and what he was going to say, with people in FHM, and therefore considered them part of his consultancy contract. Here is Tegnell saying there will be herd immunity in may, in swedish: https://www.nrk.no/urix/tegnell_-_-det-kan-bli-flokkimmunitet-i-stockholm-i-mai-1.14984679 https://www.nrk.no/urix/tegnell_-_-det-kan-bli-flokkimmunite... The situation is a mess, and it feels as though many people are trying to muddle the waters, by spreading confusion.