4 ms·

I used hunt and peck for years before learning to touch type. After four years of touch type I'm still fairly crap. If I try to speed up i commonly get the lett

I used hunt and peck for years before learning to touch type. After four years of touch type I'm still fairly crap. If I try to speed up i commonly get the letter order wrong of two successive letters. I'm a lot better than hunt and peck but I'm kind of disappointed. Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big improvements? Also is it better for the keys programmers use that others don't use so much like += etc

rgoulter 6y ago
> Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big improvements? Yes, it will take a significant amount of effort to change over to Dvorak layout. You're unlikely to see speed improvements with Dvorak without continuous effort. However, IMO, Dvorak feels a lot nicer to type with than qwerty. IME: I learned Dvorak around 5 years ago, but switched back to qwerty. A few weeks ago, decided to use Dvorak again. There's a "like riding a bike" quality to it; although I'd recommend against using different layouts with the same physical keyboard. > is it better for the keys programmers use that others don't use so much like += etc IMO no. (They're infrequently used in either qwerty or dvorak, which makes sense to me. I don't notice one as better/worse than the other).
alpaca128 6y ago
In my experience it pays off to do a bit of typing practice every day for a few weeks. It noticably made me a bit faster and more accurate and it wasn't even remotely as hard and time-consuming as switching the layout. I think learning Dvorak etc. doesn't pay off at all and qwerty actually isn't as bad as people say(the real problems of mainstream keyboards are present in Dvorak etc. as well). Most people just don't consciously practice it regularly.
clarry 6y ago
> Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big improvements? Don't expect improvements in speed. For me it's all about comfort. What's a major job for you? You can memorize the layout in a day, type painfully slow for a couple days, start to feel rather comfortable in a week or two tops (still likely slower, depending on how fast you were, but now you're accustomed to the pace you type at on your new layout). Getting to the 80-100 WPM range takes weeks. This, of course, assumes that you put in the effort (do drills and memorize the layout first of all; keep doing drills daily, and don't switch back to your old layout when it feels convenient).
- stormdennis 6y ago
  Thanks for the replies everyone. The sense I'm getting is there's are no magic bullet keyboards out there and the best thing to do is stick with Qwerty and take some lessons. BTW I've seen a kid touch typing one handed at a phenomenal speed, the other hand being taken up with the mouse.
toyg 6y ago
> After four years of touch type I'm still fairly crap. Define "fairly crap". I do 50wpm on Colemak, which is better than most non-IT people but nowhere near the best. It's good enough for me, feels much faster than my previous "bad habits" (a mix of hunt & peck and muscle memory accumulated on long emails in my misspent youth), it's getting better the more I practice, and comfort is on another scale (no more wrist pain!). I only started touchtyping seriously in my late 30s, had I done it earlier I'd probably be in the 80wpm+ by now. . > If I try to speed up i commonly get the letter order wrong You likely need more practice, sadly that's the only advice I can give you. Don't focus on speed, focus on precision. Speed will come naturally once your muscle memory sets in properly. Try to practice with text you are actually likely to encounter in real usage - there is little point training to type Dickens if your life is spent between angle brackets and special characters. > Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak Dvorak is a waste of time - it's already obsolete and never really delivered on its promises. If you make the jump, consider something more recent like Colemak, Workman, or other stuff like this, based on actual research and statistical analysis that were not possible at the time Dvorak appeared. This said, changing layout is easy but frustrating. It takes time and practice. It's like learning an instrument - is it easy to play the guitar? Yes it is, conceptually; but it still takes years of regular practice to play well. > Also is it better for the keys programmers use that others don't use so much like += The answer is a resounding "no" for the most common alternative layouts. For that, you have to try the more obscure ones like Neo. TBH I'm starting to think the only practical solution to this problem is a programmable keyboard or equivalent big hack.
thomastjeffery 6y ago
If your goal is speed, you won't see significant gains. If your goal is comfort, you may see significant gains. I did.
WorldMaker 6y ago
> Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big improvements? Not necessarily, it depends on the reasons you are still bad at touch typing on QWERTY. In some cases learning touch typing in QWERTY after years of hunt and peck bad habits simply shifts some of those bad habits directly into your touch typing behaviors. Maybe you still glance at the keyboard too often? Maybe you still rely on muscle memory from hunt and peck days to type a couple specific words and don't realize it? A clean break to an entirely different keyboard layout and relearning touch typing on it can sometimes be exactly the hurdle you need to really learn touch typing, especially if you can do it during an opportunity for a full "cold turkey" switch on every keyboard you use daily. Don't rearrange the letters on the keys. If anything, do something drastic like remove the labels entirely. Maybe not for everyone, and certainly there are a lot of comments in this thread with opinions on the matter that it is too much work and maybe not worth it. Anecdotally, I know that I had to cold turkey relearn touch typing on something that wasn't QWERTY to see most of the benefits of touch typing, and I'm glad that I did. > Also is it better for the keys programmers use that others don't use so much like += etc That's one of the criticisms that Colemak (and Workman/Norman) make of Dvorak that it moves too many punctuation keys. It's clear we are in a world where QWERTY won, and its punctuation keys are mostly fine where they are, with one very obvious exception (;/: should not be in the home row). > If I try to speed up i commonly get the letter order wrong of two successive letters. Touch typing doesn't make you "perfect" (and never will). Mistakes happen and shouldn't be seen as a failure in touch typing. One suggestion that Colemak makes and applies to all touch typing even if you stick to QWERTY (and others in threads here have suggested the same thing) is to rebind your Caps Lock key to Backspace. Mistakes happen, and are common enough. The Caps Lock is a much friendlier and easy to reach location than the usual Backspace location. Make mistakes quickly, but fix them just as quickly.

rgoulter 6y ago

> Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big improvements? Yes, it will take a significant amount of effort to change over to Dvorak layout. You're unlikely to see speed improvements with Dvorak without continuous effort. However, IMO, Dvorak feels a lot nicer to type with than qwerty. IME: I learned Dvorak around 5 years ago, but switched back to qwerty. A few weeks ago, decided to use Dvorak again. There's a "like riding a bike" quality to it; although I'd recommend against using different layouts with the same physical keyboard. > is it better for the keys programmers use that others don't use so much like += etc IMO no. (They're infrequently used in either qwerty or dvorak, which makes sense to me. I don't notice one as better/worse than the other).

alpaca128 6y ago

In my experience it pays off to do a bit of typing practice every day for a few weeks. It noticably made me a bit faster and more accurate and it wasn't even remotely as hard and time-consuming as switching the layout. I think learning Dvorak etc. doesn't pay off at all and qwerty actually isn't as bad as people say(the real problems of mainstream keyboards are present in Dvorak etc. as well). Most people just don't consciously practice it regularly.

clarry 6y ago

> Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big improvements? Don't expect improvements in speed. For me it's all about comfort. What's a major job for you? You can memorize the layout in a day, type painfully slow for a couple days, start to feel rather comfortable in a week or two tops (still likely slower, depending on how fast you were, but now you're accustomed to the pace you type at on your new layout). Getting to the 80-100 WPM range takes weeks. This, of course, assumes that you put in the effort (do drills and memorize the layout first of all; keep doing drills daily, and don't switch back to your old layout when it feels convenient).

stormdennis 6y ago
Thanks for the replies everyone. The sense I'm getting is there's are no magic bullet keyboards out there and the best thing to do is stick with Qwerty and take some lessons. BTW I've seen a kid touch typing one handed at a phenomenal speed, the other hand being taken up with the mouse.

toyg 6y ago

> After four years of touch type I'm still fairly crap. Define "fairly crap". I do 50wpm on Colemak, which is better than most non-IT people but nowhere near the best. It's good enough for me, feels much faster than my previous "bad habits" (a mix of hunt & peck and muscle memory accumulated on long emails in my misspent youth), it's getting better the more I practice, and comfort is on another scale (no more wrist pain!). I only started touchtyping seriously in my late 30s, had I done it earlier I'd probably be in the 80wpm+ by now. . > If I try to speed up i commonly get the letter order wrong You likely need more practice, sadly that's the only advice I can give you. Don't focus on speed, focus on precision. Speed will come naturally once your muscle memory sets in properly. Try to practice with text you are actually likely to encounter in real usage - there is little point training to type Dickens if your life is spent between angle brackets and special characters. > Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak Dvorak is a waste of time - it's already obsolete and never really delivered on its promises. If you make the jump, consider something more recent like Colemak, Workman, or other stuff like this, based on actual research and statistical analysis that were not possible at the time Dvorak appeared. This said, changing layout is easy but frustrating. It takes time and practice. It's like learning an instrument - is it easy to play the guitar? Yes it is, conceptually; but it still takes years of regular practice to play well. > Also is it better for the keys programmers use that others don't use so much like += The answer is a resounding "no" for the most common alternative layouts. For that, you have to try the more obscure ones like Neo. TBH I'm starting to think the only practical solution to this problem is a programmable keyboard or equivalent big hack.

thomastjeffery 6y ago

If your goal is speed, you won't see significant gains. If your goal is comfort, you may see significant gains. I did.

WorldMaker 6y ago

> Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big improvements? Not necessarily, it depends on the reasons you are still bad at touch typing on QWERTY. In some cases learning touch typing in QWERTY after years of hunt and peck bad habits simply shifts some of those bad habits directly into your touch typing behaviors. Maybe you still glance at the keyboard too often? Maybe you still rely on muscle memory from hunt and peck days to type a couple specific words and don't realize it? A clean break to an entirely different keyboard layout and relearning touch typing on it can sometimes be exactly the hurdle you need to really learn touch typing, especially if you can do it during an opportunity for a full "cold turkey" switch on every keyboard you use daily. Don't rearrange the letters on the keys. If anything, do something drastic like remove the labels entirely. Maybe not for everyone, and certainly there are a lot of comments in this thread with opinions on the matter that it is too much work and maybe not worth it. Anecdotally, I know that I had to cold turkey relearn touch typing on something that wasn't QWERTY to see most of the benefits of touch typing, and I'm glad that I did. > Also is it better for the keys programmers use that others don't use so much like += etc That's one of the criticisms that Colemak (and Workman/Norman) make of Dvorak that it moves too many punctuation keys. It's clear we are in a world where QWERTY won, and its punctuation keys are mostly fine where they are, with one very obvious exception (;/: should not be in the home row). > If I try to speed up i commonly get the letter order wrong of two successive letters. Touch typing doesn't make you "perfect" (and never will). Mistakes happen and shouldn't be seen as a failure in touch typing. One suggestion that Colemak makes and applies to all touch typing even if you stick to QWERTY (and others in threads here have suggested the same thing) is to rebind your Caps Lock key to Backspace. Mistakes happen, and are common enough. The Caps Lock is a much friendlier and easy to reach location than the usual Backspace location. Make mistakes quickly, but fix them just as quickly.