4 ms·

This is so obvious. Defund the police, and regulate their roles. Prioritize rape/violence/home invasion, deprioritize protests/drugs/etc., and as you say punis

This is so obvious. Defund the police, and regulate their roles. Prioritize rape/violence/home invasion, deprioritize protests/drugs/etc., and as you say punish offenders. This is obvious.

remarkEon 6y ago
>This is so obvious. Defund the police, and regulate their roles. >deprioritize protests/drugs/etc Yeah, already done that. And it's miserable. My parents came to visit (from the midwest and right before the pandemic) and were absolutely appalled at seeing needles on the street when we went out to dinner. I don't blame them, really. I blame the people who pretend that shrugging at enforcing drug laws is some sort of "justice". It's not, it's political nihilism. And we've run this test 1000 times at this point across the country. Some will say that "it's not that bad", and to them I say "yeah ... I've been in worse places around the world too". Which is a snide way of saying that I'm really annoyed that people are okay with third world standards of living in the USA because they have this inverted sense of "justice".
- frostburg 6y ago
  Drug addiction is best treated as a public health issue, not a criminal one. You're just observing the effects of a lack of rug sweeping.
  - remarkEon 6y ago
    At what point does "treating it like a public health issue" start to impede on public safety?
    - wffurr 6y ago
      It's more that not treating it (drug addiction) as a public health issue impedes on public safety. Supervised injection sites, housing first integrated support, access to effective medicine (methadone), etc. are all stymied by various flavors of political problems. What you're seeing is the result of a patchwork approach in disarray.
  - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
    Stealing bikes and breaking into cars, or worse, to buy drugs, is when it becomes a criminal issue.
- P_I_Staker 6y ago
  Yikes, dude. I just don't agree with trying to ruin someones life forever, because they occasionally like to use drugs. That's not political nihilism. I don't really consider seeing a needle in the street a "third world standard of living". I don't enjoy seeing litter, but it's a reality of living in an urban area. There's beer cans, and yes people toss bottles to, so there's shards of glass in the street, and it's not "safe" or harmless. Still, I never once considered rounding up all the drinkers, sending them to jail, then disallowing them from ever participating in most of society for the rest of their lives. That's without even considering all the collateral damage, and people hassled for no reason. Worst of all IMO, is a classic critique that dates back to prohibition: Prohibition laws breed contempt for law and order. Peaceful citizens become criminals. Cops become fascists, rounding people up for no reason. So, I'd say it's pretty reasonable to want to try something else. I'm unconvinced that there's no other option, or middle ground to deal with externalities. I also don't think you're being oppressed, or "living like you're in a third world country", because you sometimes see what's really going on in your city. Perhaps your efforts would be better spent on an anti-littering campaign.
  - remarkEon 6y ago
    >Yikes, dude. I just don't agree with trying to ruin someones life forever, because they occasionally like to use drugs. As if that's what we're doing. "Yikes bro", maybe stop straw manning everything I said into some kind of crypto fascist fantasy? Maybe consider that not being able to have your elderly parents take the subway when they visit - because of risk of violence, or you just don't want them around open injection drug use - is a sign that what we're doing isn't working? We've been trying the decriminalization route for a decade at least. Do you actually think this is "success"? Or has real decriminalization never been tried? > because you sometimes see what's really going on in your city. And this is the nihilism. Thinking this is normal.
    - godtoldmetodoit 6y ago
      Cities like Seattle and San Francisco clearly have a problem with the mentally ill and drug addicted on their streets, I agree that just leaving it "as is" should not be acceptable to anyone. It is scary, leads to more crime being committed and the people using needles in the street clearly need serious help. Is criminalizing all drug users the answer though? We have 50 years or so of results there that show that has serious issues as well. Why are we willing to spend 30-40 thousand a year on imprisoning folks at a rate that no other country even comes close to, but not try spending similar amounts of money on actual rehabilitation and welfare programs for the addicted and mentally ill? It seems worth a shot to me...

This is so obvious. Defund the police, and regulate their roles. Prioritize rape/violence/home invasion, deprioritize protests/drugs/etc., and as you say punish offenders. This is obvious.

remarkEon 6y ago

>This is so obvious. Defund the police, and regulate their roles. >deprioritize protests/drugs/etc Yeah, already done that. And it's miserable. My parents came to visit (from the midwest and right before the pandemic) and were absolutely appalled at seeing needles on the street when we went out to dinner. I don't blame them, really. I blame the people who pretend that shrugging at enforcing drug laws is some sort of "justice". It's not, it's political nihilism. And we've run this test 1000 times at this point across the country. Some will say that "it's not that bad", and to them I say "yeah ... I've been in worse places around the world too". Which is a snide way of saying that I'm really annoyed that people are okay with third world standards of living in the USA because they have this inverted sense of "justice".

frostburg 6y ago
Drug addiction is best treated as a public health issue, not a criminal one. You're just observing the effects of a lack of rug sweeping.
- remarkEon 6y ago
  At what point does "treating it like a public health issue" start to impede on public safety?
  - wffurr 6y ago
    It's more that not treating it (drug addiction) as a public health issue impedes on public safety. Supervised injection sites, housing first integrated support, access to effective medicine (methadone), etc. are all stymied by various flavors of political problems. What you're seeing is the result of a patchwork approach in disarray.
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  Stealing bikes and breaking into cars, or worse, to buy drugs, is when it becomes a criminal issue.
P_I_Staker 6y ago
Yikes, dude. I just don't agree with trying to ruin someones life forever, because they occasionally like to use drugs. That's not political nihilism. I don't really consider seeing a needle in the street a "third world standard of living". I don't enjoy seeing litter, but it's a reality of living in an urban area. There's beer cans, and yes people toss bottles to, so there's shards of glass in the street, and it's not "safe" or harmless. Still, I never once considered rounding up all the drinkers, sending them to jail, then disallowing them from ever participating in most of society for the rest of their lives. That's without even considering all the collateral damage, and people hassled for no reason. Worst of all IMO, is a classic critique that dates back to prohibition: Prohibition laws breed contempt for law and order. Peaceful citizens become criminals. Cops become fascists, rounding people up for no reason. So, I'd say it's pretty reasonable to want to try something else. I'm unconvinced that there's no other option, or middle ground to deal with externalities. I also don't think you're being oppressed, or "living like you're in a third world country", because you sometimes see what's really going on in your city. Perhaps your efforts would be better spent on an anti-littering campaign.
- remarkEon 6y ago
  >Yikes, dude. I just don't agree with trying to ruin someones life forever, because they occasionally like to use drugs. As if that's what we're doing. "Yikes bro", maybe stop straw manning everything I said into some kind of crypto fascist fantasy? Maybe consider that not being able to have your elderly parents take the subway when they visit - because of risk of violence, or you just don't want them around open injection drug use - is a sign that what we're doing isn't working? We've been trying the decriminalization route for a decade at least. Do you actually think this is "success"? Or has real decriminalization never been tried? > because you sometimes see what's really going on in your city. And this is the nihilism. Thinking this is normal.
  - godtoldmetodoit 6y ago
    Cities like Seattle and San Francisco clearly have a problem with the mentally ill and drug addicted on their streets, I agree that just leaving it "as is" should not be acceptable to anyone. It is scary, leads to more crime being committed and the people using needles in the street clearly need serious help. Is criminalizing all drug users the answer though? We have 50 years or so of results there that show that has serious issues as well. Why are we willing to spend 30-40 thousand a year on imprisoning folks at a rate that no other country even comes close to, but not try spending similar amounts of money on actual rehabilitation and welfare programs for the addicted and mentally ill? It seems worth a shot to me...