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"Police" (Edit:"modern police") is a 19th century invention, well after cities were a thing. If we get past semantics, a service that provides order and securit

"Police" (Edit:"modern police") is a 19th century invention, well after cities were a thing. If we get past semantics, a service that provides order and security to a community is needed. I imagine it more like social workers that also do criminal investigations for prosecutors instead of a military force for a city. Perhaps an unrelated armed "police" can help when deadly force is needed (gangs, armed criminals,etc...). Disarm and civilize the police but keep their SWAT units as a separate department that only backs up police when requested. This would throwing a lot less people in jail and having police that live in the community. But hey, this is just wishful imagination, politicians and police union would commit sedition if anything like this happened.

ben509 6y ago
The Vigiles were a police force[1] in ancient Rome, so they're not a recent innovation. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigiles#Police_force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigiles#Police_force
- badrabbit 6y ago
  That's not "modern police" as in the modern organized structure. Even the wild west had marshalls and sherrifs but they were not police. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police under history, look at the "modern police" section. I find this poster against police in Wales a bit amusing: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/No_Police%21%21_Well_Done_Aberystwyth_Boys_1850.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/No_Polic... Law enforcement is not the synonymous with police.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  You wouldn't go out in ancient Rome after dark, though. Unless you could afford armed bodyguards.
birdyrooster 6y ago
By civilizing the police we also mean affirmative action to bring the demographics of the officers in line with the people they serve. Removing guns wouldn’t have saved Eric Garner or George Floyd.
- ikeyany 6y ago
  Other ways of turning policing away from "tacticool" policing and towards community policing: offering cops more $$$; requiring a degree or two; placing residency requirements (x cops in a precinct must live within y miles of the community they are to serve) to help weed out the bully types. That can be done in a reasonable amount of time.
  - asdff 6y ago
    To do all that you need to start with offering cops more cash, as in LA at least there is a huge recruiting problem and a staffing shortage. No one wants to be a cop, its a notoriously shit job where they haze you worse than boot camp and that's why many cops come from cop families who don't know any better than to tow the family line. Cops in LA are also very highly paid especially in benefits and overtime. Part of the reason why they are so short staffed is that it is cheaper to pay a cop well into the 6 figures in over time and pay for one retirement pension then it is to hire two regular time cops and pay two pensions. I don't know how you fix this issue beyond enforcing stricter criminal punishment against bad cops and start actually busting heads instead of slapping wrists.
    - HarryHirsch 6y ago
      a notoriously shit job where they haze you worse than boot camp That would indicate a leadership problem. Regular people just won't stay around when everyone from the top down is bent, even if the salary is outrageous.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    They make between $200k and $500k and still shoot rubber bullets at helpful protestors in San Jose so maybe throwing money into a hole isn't super useful as a strategy.
  - AdrianB1 6y ago
    We did that in my country; it did not have the effect people hoped for, just made them another class of privileged employees milking the system. I have 2 former cops in my family, they retired young for nice pensions, money never made them any better cops. One was similar to a police captain with a masters degree, one was a seargent.
asdff 6y ago
If anything, there should be more police imo but they should be disarmed with a gun being something you need to call for. There is so much petty crime, harassment, and assault that happens on a daily basis that just goes unreported or isn't followed up with since police are spread so thin, in LA at least. I want to see the return of the beat cop who walks the neighborhood regularly. I want to feel safe walking around my city and not have to watch my back for someone out of their mind on meth who might think my backpack is easy pickings. At USC, they have these security people who just walk around the off campus area and report belligerent activity. Their uniforms are bright, so you can spot them at night and run over if needed. At the very least this sort of security needs to be in place in all parks and transit stops, there are just too many insane people left to fester on the street unfortunately. I'd love to have more shelters and mental health services built, and fully support all efforts at the ballot, but that's a 5-10 year timeline with land permitting and construction versus just handing out high vis vests and walkie talkies, and the situation certainly isn't improving in the mean time.
Stranger43 6y ago
What you are describing is the London Metropolitan Police which are regarded as one of the worlds best managed police forces, where the average bobby are unarmed and where the code of conduct focus on public service. It;s also worth noting that when the UK faced a similar problem with an undiverse militarized police force in northern Ireland they did this https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/police/patten/recommend.htm https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/police/patten/recommend.htm and launched a bunch of investigation(the Stevens enquiries) into past crimes of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. The problem in America blocking any meaningful solutions to genuine problems is the collective denial the American middle class have towards past sins and current systematic problems with the American way not that it's a new problem that have never been solved before.
- bodono 6y ago
  And yet the protests in London turned violent and attacked the police: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/03/george-floyd-protests-live-thousands-gather-london-black-lives/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/03/george-floyd-pro... Either they are not perceived as well as you think or these protests aren't about what they claim to be about.
- bodono 6y ago
  And yet the protests in London turned violent and attacked the police: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/03/george-floyd-protests-live-thousands-gather-london-black-lives/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/03/george-floyd-pro... Either the metropolitan police are not perceived as well as you think they are or these protests aren't about what they claim to be about.

ben509 6y ago

The Vigiles were a police force[1] in ancient Rome, so they're not a recent innovation. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigiles#Police_force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigiles#Police_force

badrabbit 6y ago
That's not "modern police" as in the modern organized structure. Even the wild west had marshalls and sherrifs but they were not police. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police under history, look at the "modern police" section. I find this poster against police in Wales a bit amusing: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/No_Police%21%21_Well_Done_Aberystwyth_Boys_1850.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/No_Polic... Law enforcement is not the synonymous with police.
Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
You wouldn't go out in ancient Rome after dark, though. Unless you could afford armed bodyguards.

birdyrooster 6y ago

By civilizing the police we also mean affirmative action to bring the demographics of the officers in line with the people they serve. Removing guns wouldn’t have saved Eric Garner or George Floyd.

ikeyany 6y ago
Other ways of turning policing away from "tacticool" policing and towards community policing: offering cops more $$$; requiring a degree or two; placing residency requirements (x cops in a precinct must live within y miles of the community they are to serve) to help weed out the bully types. That can be done in a reasonable amount of time.
- asdff 6y ago
  To do all that you need to start with offering cops more cash, as in LA at least there is a huge recruiting problem and a staffing shortage. No one wants to be a cop, its a notoriously shit job where they haze you worse than boot camp and that's why many cops come from cop families who don't know any better than to tow the family line. Cops in LA are also very highly paid especially in benefits and overtime. Part of the reason why they are so short staffed is that it is cheaper to pay a cop well into the 6 figures in over time and pay for one retirement pension then it is to hire two regular time cops and pay two pensions. I don't know how you fix this issue beyond enforcing stricter criminal punishment against bad cops and start actually busting heads instead of slapping wrists.
  - HarryHirsch 6y ago
    a notoriously shit job where they haze you worse than boot camp That would indicate a leadership problem. Regular people just won't stay around when everyone from the top down is bent, even if the salary is outrageous.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  They make between $200k and $500k and still shoot rubber bullets at helpful protestors in San Jose so maybe throwing money into a hole isn't super useful as a strategy.
- AdrianB1 6y ago
  We did that in my country; it did not have the effect people hoped for, just made them another class of privileged employees milking the system. I have 2 former cops in my family, they retired young for nice pensions, money never made them any better cops. One was similar to a police captain with a masters degree, one was a seargent.

asdff 6y ago

If anything, there should be more police imo but they should be disarmed with a gun being something you need to call for. There is so much petty crime, harassment, and assault that happens on a daily basis that just goes unreported or isn't followed up with since police are spread so thin, in LA at least. I want to see the return of the beat cop who walks the neighborhood regularly. I want to feel safe walking around my city and not have to watch my back for someone out of their mind on meth who might think my backpack is easy pickings. At USC, they have these security people who just walk around the off campus area and report belligerent activity. Their uniforms are bright, so you can spot them at night and run over if needed. At the very least this sort of security needs to be in place in all parks and transit stops, there are just too many insane people left to fester on the street unfortunately. I'd love to have more shelters and mental health services built, and fully support all efforts at the ballot, but that's a 5-10 year timeline with land permitting and construction versus just handing out high vis vests and walkie talkies, and the situation certainly isn't improving in the mean time.

Stranger43 6y ago

What you are describing is the London Metropolitan Police which are regarded as one of the worlds best managed police forces, where the average bobby are unarmed and where the code of conduct focus on public service. It;s also worth noting that when the UK faced a similar problem with an undiverse militarized police force in northern Ireland they did this https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/police/patten/recommend.htm https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/police/patten/recommend.htm and launched a bunch of investigation(the Stevens enquiries) into past crimes of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. The problem in America blocking any meaningful solutions to genuine problems is the collective denial the American middle class have towards past sins and current systematic problems with the American way not that it's a new problem that have never been solved before.

bodono 6y ago
And yet the protests in London turned violent and attacked the police: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/03/george-floyd-protests-live-thousands-gather-london-black-lives/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/03/george-floyd-pro... Either they are not perceived as well as you think or these protests aren't about what they claim to be about.
bodono 6y ago
And yet the protests in London turned violent and attacked the police: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/03/george-floyd-protests-live-thousands-gather-london-black-lives/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/03/george-floyd-pro... Either the metropolitan police are not perceived as well as you think they are or these protests aren't about what they claim to be about.