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"or else it would be obvious why they “knock off” those two bits" In a post where I'm talking about necessary processing (where you claim there is none) to tur

"or else it would be obvious why they “knock off” those two bits" In a post where I'm talking about necessary processing (where you claim there is none) to turn the ugly sensor data into workable forms you attempt to correct me to tell me that it needs to be processed (I mean, you are aware of libraw so clearly you're an expert. funfact: I worked for two years on a professional codebase that specifically dealt with raw sensor processing), as if to demonstrate my ignorance. Remarkable absence of self-awareness on your part. Your reply could really be posted as a counterpoint to your own first post where you decided to counter my basic statement that all CMOS sensors have noise and abberations. "and if you understood the physics of how a CMOS sensor works" Just to be clear, your authoritative site shows the iPhone (the last generation) being less noisy than many SLRs. And it's fact that the iPhone 11 has 10 stops of dynamic range, before any special bracketing, which bests many/most SLRs on that site. And yet we're still going. Amazing But your core "if you only understood CMOS...reeeeeeeee!" claim is one that is often erroneously made. "larger sensor = larger sensor pit pitch = better, less noisy sensor!" Right? I mean, this argument has been made against smartphones for years. To assure us that they'll always be crap because...like...physics or something. Though anyone who didn't decide to die on a really stupid hill has long moved on. But here's the reality- a) There are enormous difference between different CMOS technologies and implementations. Sony, for instance, has shot ahead of everyone else (though they bin and segment). There are many SLRs and mirrorless cameras with absolute trash sensors. Cargo culting is ignorant. b) Many cameras with larger sensors spend the benefit on higher resolutions. The Sony A7R IV subdivides the sensor into 5x more pixels than the iPhone 11 (the A7R IV being one of the absolute best). If that was lossless you could simply process it to a lower resolution and have the best of both worlds, but it isn't lossless -- the circuitry and structure to support that resolution is substantial. Each pit has its own lines and power and memory channel. And even if they didn't, noise scales with the sensor size. "Give me a specific SLR in the last 4 years where either of these is true." You've already segued effortlessly from noise to dynamic range, humorously, and now you're making a baseless, nonsensical statement just hoping that no one actually confirms it. Your intellectual sincerity in this discussion is somewhere approaching non-existent, so I'm out. Cheers.

centimeter 6y ago
> Just to be clear, your authoritative site shows the iPhone (the last generation) being less noisy than many SLRs. Charitably, you are confused, and uncharitably you are lying or misleading. I gave you a simple prompt where you could prove yourself right with a single camera model, and unsurprisingly you’ve failed to take advantage of it. > And even if they didn't, noise scales with the sensor size. These noise sources are completely dwarfed by poisson/shot noise (which is the completely overwhelming noise source on most modern SLRs for “everyday” photographs). The iPhone’s FETs hold a lot fewer electrons. There is no way around this. And then with technology like Dr-pix present in modern Sony sensors (including the ones they sell to Fuji), the gap gets even wider.
- hn_check 6y ago
  "I gave you a simple prompt" Is that a command? Am I your monkey? I humored your site, noted that it didn't confirm your claims (again -- you didn't link this proof about noise, and when I used your site to demonstrate that you were incorrect...you segued to DR where you could enjoy that this site has a single obsolete smartphone). Curious that you decided to get the last word in again. Your own proof is flawed. But again, you claimed that every SLR in the past 4 years is "vastly" better. "Not even in the same ballpark". Your net evidence so far is that a $5000 camera body, which is known to have a class leading sensor, has better dynamic range than a two year old iPhone. "Hahahahaha".
  - centimeter 6y ago
    Stop seething and name one SLR made in the last 4 years by Nikon, canon, Sony, Fuji, etc. with worse noise stats than the iPhone.
    - hn_check 6y ago
      You have zero sincerity in your request and I guarantee will immediately move the goalposts (with complete certainty), however here you go- Canon 6D Mark II. Released in 2017. Actually a "prosumer" camera where the body alone pushes $2000. Full frame sensor (and given that you're a big brain about CMOS, surely that means it must dominate, right)? Trash noise profile Trash dynamic range The iPhone 11 handily beats this device in virtually every measure. Despite the Canon having a big old fat 861mm2 sensor (again -- weird that this isn't a magical solution! I mean, if I knew anything about CMOS at all I'd know...blah blah blah) And we're being generous and ignoring that most of the people hyping up SLRs in here have their old T2i and think because it's heavier and bigger it's a superior imaging machine. What now? Do you concede defeat? LOL. Of course you won't. And again, this all started based upon the completely ignorant claim that SLRs don't have sensor noise, which is ludicrous, then you decided to wallow in and tell us how completely and absolutely outclassed smartphones are. This is just layers and layers of cargo culting ignorance. EDIT: LOL insta-flagged. Classic HN. Where imbeciles flourish and comfort each other's stupidity. The guy I responded to has puffed every comment up with insults, a hilariously unearned sense of superiority, and just post after post of ignorance. Hacker News is the world's greatest example of Dunning-Kruger. Time to go read some deliciously ignorant hot takes about COVID-19!

centimeter 6y ago

> Just to be clear, your authoritative site shows the iPhone (the last generation) being less noisy than many SLRs. Charitably, you are confused, and uncharitably you are lying or misleading. I gave you a simple prompt where you could prove yourself right with a single camera model, and unsurprisingly you’ve failed to take advantage of it. > And even if they didn't, noise scales with the sensor size. These noise sources are completely dwarfed by poisson/shot noise (which is the completely overwhelming noise source on most modern SLRs for “everyday” photographs). The iPhone’s FETs hold a lot fewer electrons. There is no way around this. And then with technology like Dr-pix present in modern Sony sensors (including the ones they sell to Fuji), the gap gets even wider.

hn_check 6y ago
"I gave you a simple prompt" Is that a command? Am I your monkey? I humored your site, noted that it didn't confirm your claims (again -- you didn't link this proof about noise, and when I used your site to demonstrate that you were incorrect...you segued to DR where you could enjoy that this site has a single obsolete smartphone). Curious that you decided to get the last word in again. Your own proof is flawed. But again, you claimed that every SLR in the past 4 years is "vastly" better. "Not even in the same ballpark". Your net evidence so far is that a $5000 camera body, which is known to have a class leading sensor, has better dynamic range than a two year old iPhone. "Hahahahaha".
- centimeter 6y ago
  Stop seething and name one SLR made in the last 4 years by Nikon, canon, Sony, Fuji, etc. with worse noise stats than the iPhone.
  - hn_check 6y ago
    You have zero sincerity in your request and I guarantee will immediately move the goalposts (with complete certainty), however here you go- Canon 6D Mark II. Released in 2017. Actually a "prosumer" camera where the body alone pushes $2000. Full frame sensor (and given that you're a big brain about CMOS, surely that means it must dominate, right)? Trash noise profile Trash dynamic range The iPhone 11 handily beats this device in virtually every measure. Despite the Canon having a big old fat 861mm2 sensor (again -- weird that this isn't a magical solution! I mean, if I knew anything about CMOS at all I'd know...blah blah blah) And we're being generous and ignoring that most of the people hyping up SLRs in here have their old T2i and think because it's heavier and bigger it's a superior imaging machine. What now? Do you concede defeat? LOL. Of course you won't. And again, this all started based upon the completely ignorant claim that SLRs don't have sensor noise, which is ludicrous, then you decided to wallow in and tell us how completely and absolutely outclassed smartphones are. This is just layers and layers of cargo culting ignorance. EDIT: LOL insta-flagged. Classic HN. Where imbeciles flourish and comfort each other's stupidity. The guy I responded to has puffed every comment up with insults, a hilariously unearned sense of superiority, and just post after post of ignorance. Hacker News is the world's greatest example of Dunning-Kruger. Time to go read some deliciously ignorant hot takes about COVID-19!