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You're very lucky. Rented to a single mother with two teenage sons. The teenage sons that decided to strip down living trees of their branches, to make bonfires

You're very lucky. Rented to a single mother with two teenage sons. The teenage sons that decided to strip down living trees of their branches, to make bonfires for parties in the backyard. Two trees are severely damaged, and anything that was burnable in the landscape is burnt. I don't even know how to go about pricing out the damage. Insurance is paying for their rent, because the last house they lived in burned down. Sent her a strongly worded email. She promised not to make more bonfires. But I was there this week, and more branches where hacked off, and one tree is almost hacked of its bark 60% around. Can't sleep at night, getting anxiety that they will burn the place down. They're to move out before the end of the month.

ponker 6y ago
Are you that worse off if they burn it down? You won’t have to worry about them resisting eviction and you’ll get an insurance payment.
- sytelus 6y ago
  Typically insurance payment doesn't cover everything. You will almost always be at some loss, often much greater than year worth of rent. Also, I'd suspect your future premium rates would rise given insurance companies will see increased risk due to your history of getting bad tenants.
- tengbretson 6y ago
  Insurance payments being equal, I don't think it needs to be said that not wanting your things to be set on fire is a reasonable ask.
  - ponker 6y ago
    Problem tenants are different levels of problem in different jurisdictions. In San Francisco, I can imagine a landlord being perfectly happy to eat the distress of a tenant burning down their property, given that in the same stroke they solved the problem of their occupancy of the property.
inetknght 6y ago
I'm not a lawyer but reddit's r/legaladvice seems to enjoy referring to people to tree lawyers. From what I gather there's a lot of money involved in tree laws. And if you've got picture evidence that's especially loved by lawyers.
- ivalm 6y ago
  But section 8 tenants don’t have money to compensate either.
- JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
  It probably isn't worthwhile to litigate against Section 8 voucher recipients. Not much in terms of assets to recover for your monetary damages.
  - inetknght 6y ago
    Litigate against the tenant? You're probably right. But insurance? Maybe.
    - sky_rw 6y ago
      Every time I see comments like this, and no direct offense intended, It always strikes me as coming from somebody who has never filed large insurance claims before. Been seeing this so much with riots lately, "oh you have insurance right, why you mad about your business getting destroyed?". If only it was that simple.
      - inetknght 6y ago
        The largest insurance claim I've had was for a little over $5k for a vehicle repair after collision while avoiding a pedestrian in the street. I'm not sure if you think that's "large" but it was very painless to do IMO.
        danson 6y ago
ianlevesque 6y ago
These stories that come out of the woodwork every time tenants are mentioned are why I’ll never be a landlord.
- Grimm1 6y ago
  My simplified understanding is that this is what REITs are for. They're an investment vehicle for companies looking to build real estate they don't have the capital for. They raise through a REIT and you wind up with a dividend of some kind out of what they make from tenants. It minimizes the risk for a general investor. Disclaimer: I know very little about them, this is not a recommendation I probably have some details wrong, just something I've seen floated around. Edit: Someone want to jump in with what they are then? Not like I said go do this right now or something, would genuinely like to learn what I'm wrong about here. Downvoting without a response continues to be the weakest part about this community.
  - ctchocula 6y ago
    My understanding is that the appeal of owning real estate yourself is housing mortgages gives you: (1) the cheapest leverage available to retail investors and (2) a loan that can't be margin-called. In an upmarket, this leverage lets you juice your returns. Say you only have $200,000. Then by getting a mortgage of $800,000 you get ownership of a house worth $1M. This gives you the right to the cashflow from renting the house out and in an upmarket, the appreciation in the house price. If the house appreciates in value by 20% or $200,000, then with your $200,000 investment your return is 100%. Buying REITs in he form of an ETF doesn't offer you either the cheap leverage nor the margin call-proof loan. Another difference is that REITs own many types of commercial real estate, ranging from office and apartment buildings to warehouses, hospitals, shopping centers, hotels and timberlands, but usually real estate retail investors own are for housing.
    - echelon 6y ago
      > a loan that can't be margin-called What do you mean by this? That the loan can't be eagerly collected in full? That the repayment is on a schedule?
drewmol 6y ago
How big is the tree? Beavers cause this type damage and they also can't be reasoned with. If it's small enough to reach 60% of the bark just have it cut down and into pieces. It seems to make good enough firewood for them, hopefully the'll burn through most of it and you can plant a new tree in the ashes next month?
- jungletime 6y ago
  The pine tree is fully mature, maybe 40+ feet high. Its the one with the most damage to its bark. Too big for me to cut down on my own. Its also next to a fence. The blue spruce I could cut down.
  - drewmol 6y ago
    Deer love to rub velvet of their antlers on the pines around me and it's not uncommon to see a whole group of pines without any branches on the lower half and they rub all the bark they can reach off in the fall. If it's 40 ft, would wrapping the trunk with tree wrap protect it until their gone? Then asses it, hopefully it starts to cover the exposed areas on it's own
    - nmeofthestate 6y ago
      "would wrapping the trunk with tree wrap protect it until their gone" Bear in mind that the tenants have already ignored requests to stop destroying the trees, and they have opposable thumbs.
      - drewmol 6y ago
        My thought was that some teenagers need a constant reminder.
  - hnick 6y ago
    Here in Sydney Australia some local council restrictions are very onerous when it comes to trimming or removing older trees (except a short list of excluded species). I've heard of fines of $40,000 or more. Nothing like that near you?
conductr 6y ago
Hire an arborists to assess the trees with whatever is remaining; street view images. Also an appraisal based on arborists opinion. Mature trees are very pricey in legal damages. as essentially irreplaceable. I could never imagine this scenario. But I have a Tree Addendum I had drafted specifically because I don’t want my tenants to even lay a hand on the trees. I’m more worried by negligent tree trimming that kills a tree. But it sets value to each tree too. Something like “$1000 per inch diameter at 18” above ground.” Sorry about this situation you’re in.

ponker 6y ago

Are you that worse off if they burn it down? You won’t have to worry about them resisting eviction and you’ll get an insurance payment.

sytelus 6y ago
Typically insurance payment doesn't cover everything. You will almost always be at some loss, often much greater than year worth of rent. Also, I'd suspect your future premium rates would rise given insurance companies will see increased risk due to your history of getting bad tenants.
tengbretson 6y ago
Insurance payments being equal, I don't think it needs to be said that not wanting your things to be set on fire is a reasonable ask.
- ponker 6y ago
  Problem tenants are different levels of problem in different jurisdictions. In San Francisco, I can imagine a landlord being perfectly happy to eat the distress of a tenant burning down their property, given that in the same stroke they solved the problem of their occupancy of the property.

inetknght 6y ago

I'm not a lawyer but reddit's r/legaladvice seems to enjoy referring to people to tree lawyers. From what I gather there's a lot of money involved in tree laws. And if you've got picture evidence that's especially loved by lawyers.

ivalm 6y ago
But section 8 tenants don’t have money to compensate either.
JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
It probably isn't worthwhile to litigate against Section 8 voucher recipients. Not much in terms of assets to recover for your monetary damages.
- inetknght 6y ago
  Litigate against the tenant? You're probably right. But insurance? Maybe.
  - sky_rw 6y ago
    Every time I see comments like this, and no direct offense intended, It always strikes me as coming from somebody who has never filed large insurance claims before. Been seeing this so much with riots lately, "oh you have insurance right, why you mad about your business getting destroyed?". If only it was that simple.
    - inetknght 6y ago
      The largest insurance claim I've had was for a little over $5k for a vehicle repair after collision while avoiding a pedestrian in the street. I'm not sure if you think that's "large" but it was very painless to do IMO.
      - danson 6y ago

ianlevesque 6y ago

These stories that come out of the woodwork every time tenants are mentioned are why I’ll never be a landlord.

Grimm1 6y ago
My simplified understanding is that this is what REITs are for. They're an investment vehicle for companies looking to build real estate they don't have the capital for. They raise through a REIT and you wind up with a dividend of some kind out of what they make from tenants. It minimizes the risk for a general investor. Disclaimer: I know very little about them, this is not a recommendation I probably have some details wrong, just something I've seen floated around. Edit: Someone want to jump in with what they are then? Not like I said go do this right now or something, would genuinely like to learn what I'm wrong about here. Downvoting without a response continues to be the weakest part about this community.
- ctchocula 6y ago
  My understanding is that the appeal of owning real estate yourself is housing mortgages gives you: (1) the cheapest leverage available to retail investors and (2) a loan that can't be margin-called. In an upmarket, this leverage lets you juice your returns. Say you only have $200,000. Then by getting a mortgage of $800,000 you get ownership of a house worth $1M. This gives you the right to the cashflow from renting the house out and in an upmarket, the appreciation in the house price. If the house appreciates in value by 20% or $200,000, then with your $200,000 investment your return is 100%. Buying REITs in he form of an ETF doesn't offer you either the cheap leverage nor the margin call-proof loan. Another difference is that REITs own many types of commercial real estate, ranging from office and apartment buildings to warehouses, hospitals, shopping centers, hotels and timberlands, but usually real estate retail investors own are for housing.
  - echelon 6y ago
    > a loan that can't be margin-called What do you mean by this? That the loan can't be eagerly collected in full? That the repayment is on a schedule?

drewmol 6y ago

How big is the tree? Beavers cause this type damage and they also can't be reasoned with. If it's small enough to reach 60% of the bark just have it cut down and into pieces. It seems to make good enough firewood for them, hopefully the'll burn through most of it and you can plant a new tree in the ashes next month?

jungletime 6y ago
The pine tree is fully mature, maybe 40+ feet high. Its the one with the most damage to its bark. Too big for me to cut down on my own. Its also next to a fence. The blue spruce I could cut down.
- drewmol 6y ago
  Deer love to rub velvet of their antlers on the pines around me and it's not uncommon to see a whole group of pines without any branches on the lower half and they rub all the bark they can reach off in the fall. If it's 40 ft, would wrapping the trunk with tree wrap protect it until their gone? Then asses it, hopefully it starts to cover the exposed areas on it's own
  - nmeofthestate 6y ago
    "would wrapping the trunk with tree wrap protect it until their gone" Bear in mind that the tenants have already ignored requests to stop destroying the trees, and they have opposable thumbs.
    - drewmol 6y ago
      My thought was that some teenagers need a constant reminder.
- hnick 6y ago
  Here in Sydney Australia some local council restrictions are very onerous when it comes to trimming or removing older trees (except a short list of excluded species). I've heard of fines of $40,000 or more. Nothing like that near you?

conductr 6y ago

Hire an arborists to assess the trees with whatever is remaining; street view images. Also an appraisal based on arborists opinion. Mature trees are very pricey in legal damages. as essentially irreplaceable. I could never imagine this scenario. But I have a Tree Addendum I had drafted specifically because I don’t want my tenants to even lay a hand on the trees. I’m more worried by negligent tree trimming that kills a tree. But it sets value to each tree too. Something like “$1000 per inch diameter at 18” above ground.” Sorry about this situation you’re in.