4 ms·

One of my current frustrations with American politics is how radical everything has become. The debate is now, either we don't have any police and defund them,

One of my current frustrations with American politics is how radical everything has become. The debate is now, either we don't have any police and defund them, or, we allow them to continue being completely unaccountable. Neither of those situations sound ideal. It feels like Europe and other places have a much more reasonable and nuanced view. Police get funded, and well funded, but the job requirements are strict, and the emphasis is more about public good and safety. If there's a crime the police do exist and do show up but they also don't shoot people dead in their house at 3am.

gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
Yea I'm kind of besides myself about how "abolishing police" is treated as a serious proposal, when the most deaths and violence occur in profoundly vulnerable communities where disbanding police would almost certainly result in innocent people having no protection against criminals. It's pretty clear that police unions allow for a lot of this institutional rot and inability to address abuse. I fear that the left doesn't want to recognize that unions are capable of becoming institutional agents of oppression and injustice. Yet reforming public sector unions is perhaps one of the most practical and effective steps to correcting the malfeasance of police as we know them today without fundamentally changing how they operate.
- electricviolet 6y ago
  Most of the left leaders I follow and trust are specifically opposed to police unions due to the fact that they protect violent officers. Let's not lump other public sector unions in with police unions; the teacher's union has nothing to do with police brutality.
  - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
    I don't follow socialist stuff too much but I thought there'd be some interesting work from Jacobin to see how they perceive it. Turns out there is: > However, in most cities and states, police unions are treated as members in good standing of local labor councils and federations. They often work closely with other municipal unions, from firefighters to teachers, to protect labor rights and municipal budgets. Given their size and power, most other city unions are wary of alienating them. > This is an enormous political problem. If the police are to be defunded and reined in, their unions need to be split off and isolated from the rest of organized labor. If police unions are able to maintain a common front with other city unions, they will almost certainly be able to resist any meaningful efforts to restrain them. So basically, yea other unions are complicit and unable to reign in the abuse of police unions. It's not the way I'd try to solve it but that's how Jacobin seems to be posing the issue - other unions in the locality should be reforming neighboring unions. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/06/police-labor-union-organizing-cops-racism https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/06/police-labor-union-organi...
    - electricviolet 6y ago
      This is really interesting -- thanks for the link.
      - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
        FWIW I approach it from a libertarian perspective (namely in this case it's my view that large groups have a tendency to go sour and become abusive). So naturally I'm at best ambivalent about unionization, but I find it fascinating and enlightening to see socialists grapple with the things they advocate.
  - Gibbon1 6y ago
    Or more that police Unions in the US provide zero cross support for other unions. And their members routinely vote against interests of other unions.
  - tathougies 6y ago
    Well the teachers union in lausd at least is well known for protecting pedophiles salaries.
nmca 6y ago
It's a guns issue, surely? Not got the exact stats but for 2019 I think police killings in the UK ~3 and US ~1000, with only a 5x difference in population. I'm a well spoken law abiding white guy and American cops frighten me. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enfo... https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police...
- twyleo123 6y ago
  Let's not forget that the police themselves have their own share of fallen officers. For 2019, ~150 officers killed, out of ~700k total LEO. https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2019 https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2019
  - jessaustin 6y ago
    It seems you're overstating the case. When I click through I see causes of death like "heart attack" and "automobile crash". Other people die of those causes as well. Policing isn't even in the top ten most dangerous jobs. Save the honors for fishermen and lumberjacks.
    - twyleo123 6y ago
      Full data. I'll let you decide which deaths count and which don't. Total Line of Duty Deaths: 147 9/11 related cancer 24 Accidenta l1 Assault 3 Automobile crash 22 Drowned 1 Duty related illness 2 Explosion 1 Gunfire 48 Gunfire (Inadvertent) 2 Heart attack 19 Motorcycle crash 1 Struck by vehicle 14 Training accident 1 Vehicle pursuit 1 Vehicular assault 7
    - theonemind 6y ago
      They shoot-to-kill anything that they feel like threatens them. I can see how that might keep them pretty safe.
macintux 6y ago
> The debate is now, either we don't have any police and defund them, or, we allow them to continue being completely unaccountable. Did you read the article? The roadmap he laid out seems to be the middle ground you're looking for.
- jorblumesea 6y ago
  I'm not talking about the article. I have no doubt that NPR will make a very reasonable and completely ignored opinion. I see many people on my social media groups actively fighting for complete defunding. This article just reminded me how lacking the current popular debate is in light of these protests. Not ironically, 100% serious that removing all police and having social services will fix things.
01100011 6y ago
Times like this are not conducive to moderate ideas. Everyone craves revolution without thinking through the consequences. Even MLK was frustrated with 'white liberals' like me who favor incremental change over quick, revolutional change. I still unapologetically advocate for a slow, reasoned approach however.

gnusty_gnurc 6y ago

Yea I'm kind of besides myself about how "abolishing police" is treated as a serious proposal, when the most deaths and violence occur in profoundly vulnerable communities where disbanding police would almost certainly result in innocent people having no protection against criminals. It's pretty clear that police unions allow for a lot of this institutional rot and inability to address abuse. I fear that the left doesn't want to recognize that unions are capable of becoming institutional agents of oppression and injustice. Yet reforming public sector unions is perhaps one of the most practical and effective steps to correcting the malfeasance of police as we know them today without fundamentally changing how they operate.

electricviolet 6y ago
Most of the left leaders I follow and trust are specifically opposed to police unions due to the fact that they protect violent officers. Let's not lump other public sector unions in with police unions; the teacher's union has nothing to do with police brutality.
- gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
  I don't follow socialist stuff too much but I thought there'd be some interesting work from Jacobin to see how they perceive it. Turns out there is: > However, in most cities and states, police unions are treated as members in good standing of local labor councils and federations. They often work closely with other municipal unions, from firefighters to teachers, to protect labor rights and municipal budgets. Given their size and power, most other city unions are wary of alienating them. > This is an enormous political problem. If the police are to be defunded and reined in, their unions need to be split off and isolated from the rest of organized labor. If police unions are able to maintain a common front with other city unions, they will almost certainly be able to resist any meaningful efforts to restrain them. So basically, yea other unions are complicit and unable to reign in the abuse of police unions. It's not the way I'd try to solve it but that's how Jacobin seems to be posing the issue - other unions in the locality should be reforming neighboring unions. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/06/police-labor-union-organizing-cops-racism https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/06/police-labor-union-organi...
  - electricviolet 6y ago
    This is really interesting -- thanks for the link.
    - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
      FWIW I approach it from a libertarian perspective (namely in this case it's my view that large groups have a tendency to go sour and become abusive). So naturally I'm at best ambivalent about unionization, but I find it fascinating and enlightening to see socialists grapple with the things they advocate.
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  Or more that police Unions in the US provide zero cross support for other unions. And their members routinely vote against interests of other unions.
- tathougies 6y ago
  Well the teachers union in lausd at least is well known for protecting pedophiles salaries.

nmca 6y ago

It's a guns issue, surely? Not got the exact stats but for 2019 I think police killings in the UK ~3 and US ~1000, with only a 5x difference in population. I'm a well spoken law abiding white guy and American cops frighten me. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enfo... https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police...

twyleo123 6y ago
Let's not forget that the police themselves have their own share of fallen officers. For 2019, ~150 officers killed, out of ~700k total LEO. https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2019 https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2019
- jessaustin 6y ago
  It seems you're overstating the case. When I click through I see causes of death like "heart attack" and "automobile crash". Other people die of those causes as well. Policing isn't even in the top ten most dangerous jobs. Save the honors for fishermen and lumberjacks.
  - twyleo123 6y ago
    Full data. I'll let you decide which deaths count and which don't. Total Line of Duty Deaths: 147 9/11 related cancer 24 Accidenta l1 Assault 3 Automobile crash 22 Drowned 1 Duty related illness 2 Explosion 1 Gunfire 48 Gunfire (Inadvertent) 2 Heart attack 19 Motorcycle crash 1 Struck by vehicle 14 Training accident 1 Vehicle pursuit 1 Vehicular assault 7
  - theonemind 6y ago
    They shoot-to-kill anything that they feel like threatens them. I can see how that might keep them pretty safe.

macintux 6y ago

> The debate is now, either we don't have any police and defund them, or, we allow them to continue being completely unaccountable. Did you read the article? The roadmap he laid out seems to be the middle ground you're looking for.

jorblumesea 6y ago
I'm not talking about the article. I have no doubt that NPR will make a very reasonable and completely ignored opinion. I see many people on my social media groups actively fighting for complete defunding. This article just reminded me how lacking the current popular debate is in light of these protests. Not ironically, 100% serious that removing all police and having social services will fix things.

01100011 6y ago

Times like this are not conducive to moderate ideas. Everyone craves revolution without thinking through the consequences. Even MLK was frustrated with 'white liberals' like me who favor incremental change over quick, revolutional change. I still unapologetically advocate for a slow, reasoned approach however.