4 ms·

I'm interested to see what comes out of all this. I am very glad I do not live in Minneapolis. I did not see a specific damages amount in the complaint, but I a

by eric_b 6y ago

I'm interested to see what comes out of all this. I am very glad I do not live in Minneapolis. I did not see a specific damages amount in the complaint, but I am assuming it will be high, especially if granted class action status. Bankrupting state and city police forces probably "feels" good to a lot of people here. But what are the second and third order effects of underfunded police departments? In MN the Minneapolis city council wants to disband the police department entirely. This may be all talk, and I'm not sure if it's technically possible, but what happens if there is no police department? What are the second and third order effects of that? Is having no law enforcement a better outcome for the residents? My initial reaction is "no". When confronted with videos of people rioting, looting and vandalising most respond that "it's only a few bad apples, the vast majority are peaceful". Is it not true that most cops are OK too? I'm honestly asking. Yes there are some problem cops - Chauvin obviously having a long history of issues. But are we really saying that the majority of cops are bad actors? It feels like with emotions so hot right now, people are willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I am skeptical that is the right course of action.

loopz 6y ago
Police behaviour and processes are systemic. They're supposed to use right strategies and target the "bad apples". They're also dependent on leadership.
- eric_b 6y ago
  I agree. The bad apples have to go. My concern is that we want to "hurt" the police rather than fix the systemic issues. It seems that the Minneapolis police department has had excessive force issues for years. That feels like a leadership failure to me. In that case you'd look at the Chief, the union rep, the Mayor and any other folks who can change the culture but don't.
  - anigbrowl 6y ago
    Reformists have had decades to work in and the outcome is that we just see more impunity, more hardware, and more money spent on policing to the detriment of all other social services. The approach has failed dismally and it's time to take a more drastic approach.
  - loopz 6y ago
    Was thinking about looters. The police is a system that should find better solutions. It also need to police itself as you mention. It's a culture thing, so very easy to improve!
  - briansteffens 6y ago
    > That feels like a leadership failure to me. In that case you'd look at the Chief, the union rep, the Mayor and any other folks who can change the culture but don't. Yeah, I agree 100%, and this is why the "few bad apples" angle falls apart. This is a widespread problem with the culture of many police departments. It's not enough to fire the murderers themselves, we also need to ask: - Who hired them? - Who trained them? - Who supervised them? - Who looked into the previous excessive force complaints and decided they weren't a problem?
bberenberg 6y ago
I don't think disbanding a police force means what you think it means. Take a look at https://www.governing.com/topics/public-justice-safety/gov-camden-disbands-police-force-for-new-department.html https://www.governing.com/topics/public-justice-safety/gov-c... The goal is to wipe the slate clean and rebuild from the foundation.
- eric_b 6y ago
  From your article: "The Camden County Police Department rehired most of the laid-off cops, along with nearly 100 other officers, but at much lower salaries and with fewer benefits than they had received from the city." So the solution was to keep most of the cops (which I agree with) and then pay them less (which I, umm... I mean... that doesn't seem like a recipe for success but eh). From that article it sounds like it's too early to tell if it worked. Is the new police force doing better than the old one?
  - r00fus 6y ago
    Police are some of the highly-paid government employees out there. And that's not counting overtime.
    - anewdirection 6y ago
      Also one of the most corrupt. I wonder if better pay disincentivises fraud and corruption?
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    if they managed to rehire most of the officers and some new ones on lower salaries, that sounds like their salaries were mispriced to begin with. a clear win for the taxpayers in my book.
  - bberenberg 6y ago
    You can look into a history of similar activities across the world. The process of firing and rebuilding from scratch is the only one I know that has consistently worked. The ones that come to mind other than Camden is Northern Ireland [1] and Georgia (country)[2]. I believe there were a few other cases of this in the US, but I can't remember them off the top of my head. The Norther Ireland article specifically covers a few of the reasons why this works. Edit: I realized that I didn't respond to your question of whether this demonstrates an improvement in Camden. Citylab seems to think so, but offers a nuanced explanation of why this may not be the case and what other factors are at play [3] [1] https://www.sipri.org/commentary/topical-backgrounder/2019/police-reform-northern-ireland-achievements-and-future-challenges https://www.sipri.org/commentary/topical-backgrounder/2019/p... [2]https://www.centreforpublicimpact.org/case-study/siezing-moment-rebuilding-georgias-police/ https://www.centreforpublicimpact.org/case-study/siezing-mom... [3] https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/ https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crim...
vertex-four 6y ago
The problem is that the "good" police are incentivised to protect the "bad" police, and do so. You're not going to find the "good" police investigating and charging their colleagues - when it does happen, they're inevitably harassed and removed from the force - and nobody else is in a position to do so, so what you get is the "bad" police operating with impunity. And there's effects on the wider system - courts will believe a police officer's account of what happened pretty much no matter the opposing evidence. There's no accountability when a police officer goes against the reasons they were hired, and destroys people's lives. There's the possibility of alternative systems of protection and justice, which don't create organisations which are incentivised to protect murderers, abusers, and rapists.
- eric_b 6y ago
  What do some of those systems look like? Have any been tried on a large scale? Are they effective? (Honestly asking, I am trying to imagine something other than a police force - or that looks like a police force - that can effectively deal with crime)
  - vertex-four 6y ago
    On a large scale, not really. It's very, very hard to change a society away from being under the control of the police. On a smaller scale - yeah. There's a lot of books on the subject of transformative justice, and various methods are practiced in many many leftist spaces. I've been involved in some of it, and it's worked from my perspective. And simply meeting people's needs deters a lot of crime - nobody's going to wind up in a position where they're robbing a gas station if they know, from an early age, that they're going to be sheltered, well fed, and have a good life, and this isn't dependent on massive amounts of luck, and if they fuck up there's another chance.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - testbot123 6y ago
    I don't think they're advocating for disbanding the department completely (from the article): > I don’t know yet, though several of us on the council are working on finding out, what it would take to disband the MPD and start fresh with a community-oriented, non-violent public safety and outreach capacity. It takes a lot of investment in the community, but it works: https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/ https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crim...
jdavis703 6y ago
If it’s only a few bad apples why are we seeing lines of cops firing tear gas at peaceful protests, running their motor vehicles in to people and hiding their badge numbers and names?
- qes 6y ago
  > why are we seeing lines of cops firing tear gas at peaceful protests You mean marching down neighborhood streets and firing unprovoked at people on their own porches while yelling, "Light 'em up."
r00fus 6y ago
> I am very glad I do not live in Minneapolis. You know the protests are in all 50 states. Some of the flare-ups are due to responses to pent-up frustration from covid, but a lot are due to police riots/escalation. The rest of the protests are peaceful. > But what are the second and third order effects of underfunded police departments? Police departments, for many reasons, are the most over-funded [1]. NYPD went on strike and crime actually went down [2] for the month they didn't police. The goal is not to "disband" but essentially rewrite the entire purpose of the department. Essentially put the policing function in receivership to be revived with new leadership. [1] https://theappeal.org/spending-billions-on-policing-then-millions-on-police-misconduct/ https://theappeal.org/spending-billions-on-policing-then-mil... [2] https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-proactive-policing-crime-20170925-story.html https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-proacti...
trhway 6y ago
> Is it not true that most cops are OK too? I'm honestly asking. Yes there are some problem cops - Chauvin obviously having a long history of issues. But are we really saying that the majority of cops are bad actors? judge for yourself - the 3 randomly selected cops from Minneapolis PD were clearly aware of what was happening and were just watching as business as usual when a sadistic psychopath (just watch the video and listen to the Chauvin's tone of voice for example) was slowly and torturously executing a human being. What those 3 tell you about the cops en masse? >a long history of issues It is pretty typical - while many cops would usually not commit severe abuse/crimes/etc. at their own will, they would do nothing to stop, prevent, help to prosecute the "bad apples" cops. Basically it is a police union's, the Fraternal Order of Police's, version of omerta. And that makes them at least accessories to all those crimes.
pjc50 6y ago
> But are we really saying that the majority of cops are bad actors? As with the Floyd case, for every murder by police there are three officers standing by watching and doing nothing, at best. The examples to watch are Camden NJ and the RUC -> PSNI transition.

by eric_b 6y ago

loopz 6y ago

Police behaviour and processes are systemic. They're supposed to use right strategies and target the "bad apples". They're also dependent on leadership.

eric_b 6y ago
I agree. The bad apples have to go. My concern is that we want to "hurt" the police rather than fix the systemic issues. It seems that the Minneapolis police department has had excessive force issues for years. That feels like a leadership failure to me. In that case you'd look at the Chief, the union rep, the Mayor and any other folks who can change the culture but don't.
- anigbrowl 6y ago
  Reformists have had decades to work in and the outcome is that we just see more impunity, more hardware, and more money spent on policing to the detriment of all other social services. The approach has failed dismally and it's time to take a more drastic approach.
- loopz 6y ago
  Was thinking about looters. The police is a system that should find better solutions. It also need to police itself as you mention. It's a culture thing, so very easy to improve!
- briansteffens 6y ago
  > That feels like a leadership failure to me. In that case you'd look at the Chief, the union rep, the Mayor and any other folks who can change the culture but don't. Yeah, I agree 100%, and this is why the "few bad apples" angle falls apart. This is a widespread problem with the culture of many police departments. It's not enough to fire the murderers themselves, we also need to ask: - Who hired them? - Who trained them? - Who supervised them? - Who looked into the previous excessive force complaints and decided they weren't a problem?

bberenberg 6y ago

I don't think disbanding a police force means what you think it means. Take a look at https://www.governing.com/topics/public-justice-safety/gov-camden-disbands-police-force-for-new-department.html https://www.governing.com/topics/public-justice-safety/gov-c... The goal is to wipe the slate clean and rebuild from the foundation.

eric_b 6y ago
From your article: "The Camden County Police Department rehired most of the laid-off cops, along with nearly 100 other officers, but at much lower salaries and with fewer benefits than they had received from the city." So the solution was to keep most of the cops (which I agree with) and then pay them less (which I, umm... I mean... that doesn't seem like a recipe for success but eh). From that article it sounds like it's too early to tell if it worked. Is the new police force doing better than the old one?
- r00fus 6y ago
  Police are some of the highly-paid government employees out there. And that's not counting overtime.
  - anewdirection 6y ago
    Also one of the most corrupt. I wonder if better pay disincentivises fraud and corruption?
- leetcrew 6y ago
  if they managed to rehire most of the officers and some new ones on lower salaries, that sounds like their salaries were mispriced to begin with. a clear win for the taxpayers in my book.
- bberenberg 6y ago
  You can look into a history of similar activities across the world. The process of firing and rebuilding from scratch is the only one I know that has consistently worked. The ones that come to mind other than Camden is Northern Ireland [1] and Georgia (country)[2]. I believe there were a few other cases of this in the US, but I can't remember them off the top of my head. The Norther Ireland article specifically covers a few of the reasons why this works. Edit: I realized that I didn't respond to your question of whether this demonstrates an improvement in Camden. Citylab seems to think so, but offers a nuanced explanation of why this may not be the case and what other factors are at play [3] [1] https://www.sipri.org/commentary/topical-backgrounder/2019/police-reform-northern-ireland-achievements-and-future-challenges https://www.sipri.org/commentary/topical-backgrounder/2019/p... [2]https://www.centreforpublicimpact.org/case-study/siezing-moment-rebuilding-georgias-police/ https://www.centreforpublicimpact.org/case-study/siezing-mom... [3] https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/ https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crim...

vertex-four 6y ago

The problem is that the "good" police are incentivised to protect the "bad" police, and do so. You're not going to find the "good" police investigating and charging their colleagues - when it does happen, they're inevitably harassed and removed from the force - and nobody else is in a position to do so, so what you get is the "bad" police operating with impunity. And there's effects on the wider system - courts will believe a police officer's account of what happened pretty much no matter the opposing evidence. There's no accountability when a police officer goes against the reasons they were hired, and destroys people's lives. There's the possibility of alternative systems of protection and justice, which don't create organisations which are incentivised to protect murderers, abusers, and rapists.

eric_b 6y ago
What do some of those systems look like? Have any been tried on a large scale? Are they effective? (Honestly asking, I am trying to imagine something other than a police force - or that looks like a police force - that can effectively deal with crime)
- vertex-four 6y ago
  On a large scale, not really. It's very, very hard to change a society away from being under the control of the police. On a smaller scale - yeah. There's a lot of books on the subject of transformative justice, and various methods are practiced in many many leftist spaces. I've been involved in some of it, and it's worked from my perspective. And simply meeting people's needs deters a lot of crime - nobody's going to wind up in a position where they're robbing a gas station if they know, from an early age, that they're going to be sheltered, well fed, and have a good life, and this isn't dependent on massive amounts of luck, and if they fuck up there's another chance.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- testbot123 6y ago
  I don't think they're advocating for disbanding the department completely (from the article): > I don’t know yet, though several of us on the council are working on finding out, what it would take to disband the MPD and start fresh with a community-oriented, non-violent public safety and outreach capacity. It takes a lot of investment in the community, but it works: https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/ https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crim...

jdavis703 6y ago

If it’s only a few bad apples why are we seeing lines of cops firing tear gas at peaceful protests, running their motor vehicles in to people and hiding their badge numbers and names?

qes 6y ago
> why are we seeing lines of cops firing tear gas at peaceful protests You mean marching down neighborhood streets and firing unprovoked at people on their own porches while yelling, "Light 'em up."

r00fus 6y ago

> I am very glad I do not live in Minneapolis. You know the protests are in all 50 states. Some of the flare-ups are due to responses to pent-up frustration from covid, but a lot are due to police riots/escalation. The rest of the protests are peaceful. > But what are the second and third order effects of underfunded police departments? Police departments, for many reasons, are the most over-funded [1]. NYPD went on strike and crime actually went down [2] for the month they didn't police. The goal is not to "disband" but essentially rewrite the entire purpose of the department. Essentially put the policing function in receivership to be revived with new leadership. [1] https://theappeal.org/spending-billions-on-policing-then-millions-on-police-misconduct/ https://theappeal.org/spending-billions-on-policing-then-mil... [2] https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-proactive-policing-crime-20170925-story.html https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-proacti...

trhway 6y ago

> Is it not true that most cops are OK too? I'm honestly asking. Yes there are some problem cops - Chauvin obviously having a long history of issues. But are we really saying that the majority of cops are bad actors? judge for yourself - the 3 randomly selected cops from Minneapolis PD were clearly aware of what was happening and were just watching as business as usual when a sadistic psychopath (just watch the video and listen to the Chauvin's tone of voice for example) was slowly and torturously executing a human being. What those 3 tell you about the cops en masse? >a long history of issues It is pretty typical - while many cops would usually not commit severe abuse/crimes/etc. at their own will, they would do nothing to stop, prevent, help to prosecute the "bad apples" cops. Basically it is a police union's, the Fraternal Order of Police's, version of omerta. And that makes them at least accessories to all those crimes.

pjc50 6y ago

> But are we really saying that the majority of cops are bad actors? As with the Floyd case, for every murder by police there are three officers standing by watching and doing nothing, at best. The examples to watch are Camden NJ and the RUC -> PSNI transition.