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> Workers are incentivized to choose themselves over the health of the company or the customer. And maybe that is how it should be? Maybe life shouldn't be ab

by clarry 6y ago

> Workers are incentivized to choose themselves over the health of the company or the customer. And maybe that is how it should be? Maybe life shouldn't be about the most efficient way to run a business.

Avicebron 6y ago
This. Why should life be run the way business's are run, we have been co-opted by the business model and all it's sociopathic tendencies.
Aunche 6y ago
If Earth was government by one big country, you'd have solid point, but most Americans would prefer that the next trillion dollar companies not all be based in India and China. Also, what's best for the workers isn't necessarily what is best for society. Globalization is anti-worker, but it helps the consumer with cheaper prices, the company with extra profits, and developing countries afford what developed countries take for granted like antibiotics.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  The parent comment is making a universal statement, and so it would hypothetically apply to companies everywhere, including in India and China. Perhaps then there would be a world without trillion dollar companies, or maybe the workers can figure out a way. The Mondragon Corporation is a tens-of-billions-dollar workers cooperative [0], for instance. This line of discussion is also making the assumption that what's best of workers and what's best for companies are necessarily in conflict, which is rather silly given that if a company goes under, the workers themselves are in trouble. There is at least one example I can point to where a workers union forced management to recognize the need to be more economically competitive. [1] Also, it makes the assumption that management and/or shareholders necessarily know best for a company's future, and there is no shortage of evidence to the contrary, some even recent. [2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13986889 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13986889 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23380445 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23380445 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21887425 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21887425
  - Aunche 6y ago
    > The parent comment is making a universal statement, and so it would hypothetically apply to companies everywhere I don't find much value in hypotheicals. Even the far right Ben Shapiro admitted he would support UBI if automation makes most jobs obsolete. There are smart workers and dumb shareholders, but at the end of the day, people respond to incentives. Audi workers would never agree to convert their factory to EV had Tesla not already proven that EVs are something consumers actually want. This isn't a bad thing, but it comes with a cost. Tesla was able to ramp up production as fast as it did because they didn't need to run every decision past a union.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      > I don't find much value in hypotheicals. Your opinion doesn't change the fact that your response was invalid. You are responding to a normative, idealistic statement about universal values with your own slightly more concrete hypothetical. A misapplied exercise in practicality. > Audi workers would never agree to convert their factory to EV had Tesla not already proven that EVs are something consumers actually want. That seems like a hypothetical without basis. One doubts that General Motors assembly line workers were the ones who killed the EV1. > Tesla was able to ramp up production as fast as it did because they didn't need to run every decision past a union. There are some smart CEOs and there are dumb ones. Who's to say that the incentives given to traditional management schemes are truly correct? Businesses fail all the time. Startups, in particular, fail all of the time, and there are no shortage of egregious examples of boneheaded management decisions, or of shortsighted shareholders. Pointing to a Tesla and Musk, or to an Apple and Jobs, is simply survivorship bias.
      - 6510 6y ago
        I keep [half] joking to my managers that they should spend a few days on the work floor doing those jobs they argue so easy about. Not doing so makes it impossible to prioritize their own tasks properly. There is some child like joy in picking tasks by what they feel like doing.
      - Aunche 6y ago

by clarry 6y ago

Avicebron 6y ago

This. Why should life be run the way business's are run, we have been co-opted by the business model and all it's sociopathic tendencies.

Aunche 6y ago

If Earth was government by one big country, you'd have solid point, but most Americans would prefer that the next trillion dollar companies not all be based in India and China. Also, what's best for the workers isn't necessarily what is best for society. Globalization is anti-worker, but it helps the consumer with cheaper prices, the company with extra profits, and developing countries afford what developed countries take for granted like antibiotics.

Apocryphon 6y ago
The parent comment is making a universal statement, and so it would hypothetically apply to companies everywhere, including in India and China. Perhaps then there would be a world without trillion dollar companies, or maybe the workers can figure out a way. The Mondragon Corporation is a tens-of-billions-dollar workers cooperative [0], for instance. This line of discussion is also making the assumption that what's best of workers and what's best for companies are necessarily in conflict, which is rather silly given that if a company goes under, the workers themselves are in trouble. There is at least one example I can point to where a workers union forced management to recognize the need to be more economically competitive. [1] Also, it makes the assumption that management and/or shareholders necessarily know best for a company's future, and there is no shortage of evidence to the contrary, some even recent. [2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13986889 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13986889 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23380445 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23380445 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21887425 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21887425
- Aunche 6y ago
  > The parent comment is making a universal statement, and so it would hypothetically apply to companies everywhere I don't find much value in hypotheicals. Even the far right Ben Shapiro admitted he would support UBI if automation makes most jobs obsolete. There are smart workers and dumb shareholders, but at the end of the day, people respond to incentives. Audi workers would never agree to convert their factory to EV had Tesla not already proven that EVs are something consumers actually want. This isn't a bad thing, but it comes with a cost. Tesla was able to ramp up production as fast as it did because they didn't need to run every decision past a union.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    > I don't find much value in hypotheicals. Your opinion doesn't change the fact that your response was invalid. You are responding to a normative, idealistic statement about universal values with your own slightly more concrete hypothetical. A misapplied exercise in practicality. > Audi workers would never agree to convert their factory to EV had Tesla not already proven that EVs are something consumers actually want. That seems like a hypothetical without basis. One doubts that General Motors assembly line workers were the ones who killed the EV1. > Tesla was able to ramp up production as fast as it did because they didn't need to run every decision past a union. There are some smart CEOs and there are dumb ones. Who's to say that the incentives given to traditional management schemes are truly correct? Businesses fail all the time. Startups, in particular, fail all of the time, and there are no shortage of egregious examples of boneheaded management decisions, or of shortsighted shareholders. Pointing to a Tesla and Musk, or to an Apple and Jobs, is simply survivorship bias.
    - 6510 6y ago
      I keep [half] joking to my managers that they should spend a few days on the work floor doing those jobs they argue so easy about. Not doing so makes it impossible to prioritize their own tasks properly. There is some child like joy in picking tasks by what they feel like doing.
    - Aunche 6y ago