5 ms·

Yeah, aware of those... But... I wouldn't really use most of the countries on your list to set an example for the rest of the world, if you know what I mean...

andai 6y ago
It just means western lobbying doesn't have much of an effect there. Japan was going to use their TRON operating system in schools until Microsoft decided they didn't like that.
pphysch 6y ago
Plenty of other countries have faced US aggression, or are in danger of such.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- TallGuyShort 6y ago
  Hell, US citizens face aggression from the US.
xrisk 6y ago
Why is Hacker News largely anti-communism? (other than the obvious ties to VC of course)
- Wh1zz 6y ago
  See general state of development/corruption for all ex-soviet countries versus the rest of the developed world.
  - Wh1zz 6y ago
    > See general state of development/corruption for all ex-soviet countries versus the rest of the developed world. Also, rights and stuff
  - coliveira 6y ago
    From what I see, corruption in capitalist countries is rampant.
  - h91wka 6y ago
    You confuse cause and effect of the soviet block collapse.
  - asjw 6y ago
    Communism ≠ USSR Corruption is not a specific trait of ex Soviet countries, I would argue that it is more rampant in capitalistic countries, where money can buy favourable regulations (see tobacco or oil industry as an example)
    - reitanqild 6y ago
      No, and it is not like maoist China or Kmehr Rouge Cambodia. But there is still a pattern here: despite all good intentions communism always end in horror as far as I know.
      - the-dude 6y ago
        How has the USSR ended up in horror? What about Cuba? I will give you Vietnam though.
        asjw 6y ago
        What about Chile, Contras, the KKK ... ? What about the Videla's coup d'état supported by US that lead to hundreds of thousands of desaparecidos? One cannot simply point the finger and judge, without taking responsibility for their own wrongdoings
        reitanqild 6y ago
        It is fully possible to say no to communism without supporting other bad stuff. I live in a kind of liberal, almost secular democracy. It isn't too bad.
        chinesempire 6y ago
        So you are taking responsibility for your country's wrongdoings? I am from Rome, a place with quite the history, it's not that bad either. Hironically the best Major that my city remembers (regardless of the political ideology) is Luigi Petroselli, elected in 1979, in office until the day of his death and a member of the Italian communist party since 1950, when he was 18...
  - dastx 6y ago
    You wouldn't call a president that by all means takes from the poor, and gives it to the rich, to himself, and to children as corrupt? How about many, many senators who are doing the exact same thing? How about a prime minister that does the same? There is just as much corruption in the developed world as there is in ex-Soviet countries.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - dnautics 6y ago
      I feel like taking from the poor and giving to cronies is a thing that also happened under communism (and a good chunk of contemporary 'socialist' states, and to a less horrifying extent, gas and water socialisms like Western Europe). This is a generally predictable outcome of state-led socialism, as predicted long before actual implementation of state socialism, by early socialists like Benjamin Tucker and others like Bastiat in the mid 19th century.
      - dastx 6y ago
        I guess my point was that OP was implying capitalism has no or considerably less corruption, when in reality, this is not true. I'm not sure an ideology necessarily creates corruption. I'm not advocating for communism or capitalism or anything else, but when the UK PM is okay to start a multibillion dollar novelty project (London's Garden Bridge) and give that contract to his buddies, or the US president can literally charge the US taxpayer over $100 million to golf at his own golf course in less than four years, you cannot claim to be the better person. Capitalism sucks. Communism sucks. Instead of bashing one and praising the other despite both of them being immensely flawed, isn't the solution. Also why my original comment is flagged is beyond me.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    Err, the ex-soviet countries are cut-throat capitalist, mostly the same way early western countries were (the "robber baron" era). Not the best counter-example!
    - h91wka 6y ago
      Are they? Russia, for example, is neo-feudalist, not capitalist.
      - coldtea 6y ago
        Many western countries had similar strongmen. Some even had a bona fide royalty class, lording over common people, and then their sons, and grandsons lording in turn... That aside, modern Russia has tons of capitalists... Crony capitalism is still capitalism, and there are tons of proper companies there besides. Not everything is owned by some government-friendly mafioso. But when a regime collapses, like USSR did and there's a power vacuum that's what usually evolves for a while...
        h91wka 6y ago
        > That aside, modern Russia has tons of capitalists They are the least protected class, who live under constant threat of business extortion by corrupt government clerks. That's pretty much the opposite of "cut-throat capitalism".
        coldtea 6y ago
        >They are the least protected class, who live under constant threat of business extortion by corrupt government clerks. Not exactly, they are the ones who are friendly with the corrupt government clerks. It's not like government trumps capitalism, it's more like capitalists own friends in high places... So same as in most countries...
  - vetinari 6y ago
    > See general state of development/corruption for all ex-soviet countries versus the rest of the developed world. The delta in development between ex-USSR countries vs. the West has only increased since 1991 (the fall of USSR). So whatever they do today means they are doing worse job than they were doing under communism.
- axegon_ 6y ago
  Some of us come from countries which have experienced communism first hand. Been there, done that, no thanks, keep me out of it next time. As a Polish(iirc, I could be wrong) saying goes, "Capitalism is a system on the edge of a tall cliff. Communism is one step ahead."
  - jahaja 6y ago
    Are your general belief that people supporting Socialism today looks to the USSR as a role model?
    - axegon_ 6y ago
      Pffff... Beats me to be fair. I consider myself a centrist as far as ideology goes, slightly leaning towards the right. In eastern Europe, the left-wing supporters are largely the elderly. You are very unlikely to find young people supporting the idea, even less so among those who have had experience with it. The support for the left and socialism in these regions then is simply a reflection of what the USSR model was, whether it's blind and fanatical ideology, nostalgia or what is effectively brainwashing (the evil west spies killing babies and all the other conspiracy theories). Truth be told they are incredibly similar to Alex Jones and his views, the only difference I see is the packaging. Looking at the socialists in central and western Europe, as well as across the ocean, I have a hard time figuring out what it is they are aiming for or support. Which is not to say that I don't think that people like Trump or Bojo are not morons. They absolutely are and this is what actually worries me - superpowers that end up choosing between those two options. That terrifies me.
    - iagovar 6y ago
      IDK his POV, but in mine, I believe most people supporting Socialism has no role model, in part because there hasn't been any Socalism that worked out, so they end up talking about this mythical socialist unicorn. Some of them believe that Venezuela and Cuba are just fine. I'm talking about Spain.
  - asjw 6y ago
    In my opinion that's one view, coming from an extreme form of rulership that was established (especially in Poland) after what happened during WW2: nazi occupation, mass deportations, concentration camps etc. etc. I come from the country with the largest communist party in the West and I believe it helped the people here to get more freedom and social justice that they would have achieved otherwise
- a3n 6y ago
  I am anti communist for the things documented in, for example, The Black Book of Communism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_black_book_of_communism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_black_book_of_communism For context, I'm not a McCarthyite, nor a conservative.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    It is perfecly fine to be anti-communist, the Churchill quote about communist and conservative is especially apt, but calling out to The Black Book of Communism just dimishes and cheapens your points. Even the co-authors disassociated themselves due to the way the main author framing of the issue - basically turning the book into a simplistic propaganda tool.
- reitanqild 6y ago
  Most of us have read history. Little known fact: as a young teenager I was a fan of the idea of communism. Then I realized that every attempt at communism, except possibly the kibbutz movement in Israel, has ended in horrible famines, genocides and general horror. So today say with everyone else: Let's not try that experiment again. Even my ex-colleague who is an actual communist admitted that he had mixed feelings about it: "enthusiastic believers like me are typically the first to get killed" he said.
  - claudiawerner 6y ago
    > Most of us have read history. That's not the best argument, given that the Marxist school of history (as exemplified by Eric Hobsbawm, who was respected by historians on all sides) is quite popular among professional historians.
    - reitanqild 6y ago
      I don't understand how this is supposed to change anything? Every experiment with communism so far has ended with famine an/or genocide. I don't want to be part of another experiment and I don't want my friends to suffer it either.
      - claudiawerner 6y ago
        > I don't understand how this is supposed to change anything? Your argument was that those who are ignorant of history are in favor of Communism. This is cast into doubt by the fact that there are respected Marxist historians. Alain Badiou has some good arguments for "trying" Communism given its history; in particular, he has the example of Fermat's Last Theorem, which for hundreds of years had many attempts at solutions, each of which ending in failure (sometimes disastrous), though many of which opened new areas of mathematics. He argues that previous attempts at creating Communist society likewise have given rise to key insights and questions, which we are in a more prepared position to answer - he names two in particular: the Paris Commune and the Shanghai Commune (two examples you may have forgotten about) which raise such questions. Many people, communists or not, do not want to suffer under capitalism, and they don't want their friends to do so either.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- coldtea 6y ago
  Many here are American, and even when not, they are financially conservative startup / VC / make-it-rich kind of people...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological tangents. They're tedious and predictable—people always say the same things, and it usually turns nasty. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20ideolog&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
batmansmk 6y ago
France's police uses Linux for 10 years now, a specific Ubuntu distro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GendBuntu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GendBuntu

andai 6y ago

It just means western lobbying doesn't have much of an effect there. Japan was going to use their TRON operating system in schools until Microsoft decided they didn't like that.

pphysch 6y ago

Plenty of other countries have faced US aggression, or are in danger of such.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
TallGuyShort 6y ago
Hell, US citizens face aggression from the US.

xrisk 6y ago

Why is Hacker News largely anti-communism? (other than the obvious ties to VC of course)

Wh1zz 6y ago
See general state of development/corruption for all ex-soviet countries versus the rest of the developed world.
- Wh1zz 6y ago
  > See general state of development/corruption for all ex-soviet countries versus the rest of the developed world. Also, rights and stuff
- coliveira 6y ago
  From what I see, corruption in capitalist countries is rampant.
- h91wka 6y ago
  You confuse cause and effect of the soviet block collapse.
- asjw 6y ago
  Communism ≠ USSR Corruption is not a specific trait of ex Soviet countries, I would argue that it is more rampant in capitalistic countries, where money can buy favourable regulations (see tobacco or oil industry as an example)
  - reitanqild 6y ago
    No, and it is not like maoist China or Kmehr Rouge Cambodia. But there is still a pattern here: despite all good intentions communism always end in horror as far as I know.
    - the-dude 6y ago
      How has the USSR ended up in horror? What about Cuba? I will give you Vietnam though.
      - asjw 6y ago
        What about Chile, Contras, the KKK ... ? What about the Videla's coup d'état supported by US that lead to hundreds of thousands of desaparecidos? One cannot simply point the finger and judge, without taking responsibility for their own wrongdoings
        reitanqild 6y ago
        It is fully possible to say no to communism without supporting other bad stuff. I live in a kind of liberal, almost secular democracy. It isn't too bad.
        chinesempire 6y ago
        So you are taking responsibility for your country's wrongdoings? I am from Rome, a place with quite the history, it's not that bad either. Hironically the best Major that my city remembers (regardless of the political ideology) is Luigi Petroselli, elected in 1979, in office until the day of his death and a member of the Italian communist party since 1950, when he was 18...
- dastx 6y ago
  You wouldn't call a president that by all means takes from the poor, and gives it to the rich, to himself, and to children as corrupt? How about many, many senators who are doing the exact same thing? How about a prime minister that does the same? There is just as much corruption in the developed world as there is in ex-Soviet countries.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - dnautics 6y ago
    I feel like taking from the poor and giving to cronies is a thing that also happened under communism (and a good chunk of contemporary 'socialist' states, and to a less horrifying extent, gas and water socialisms like Western Europe). This is a generally predictable outcome of state-led socialism, as predicted long before actual implementation of state socialism, by early socialists like Benjamin Tucker and others like Bastiat in the mid 19th century.
    - dastx 6y ago
      I guess my point was that OP was implying capitalism has no or considerably less corruption, when in reality, this is not true. I'm not sure an ideology necessarily creates corruption. I'm not advocating for communism or capitalism or anything else, but when the UK PM is okay to start a multibillion dollar novelty project (London's Garden Bridge) and give that contract to his buddies, or the US president can literally charge the US taxpayer over $100 million to golf at his own golf course in less than four years, you cannot claim to be the better person. Capitalism sucks. Communism sucks. Instead of bashing one and praising the other despite both of them being immensely flawed, isn't the solution. Also why my original comment is flagged is beyond me.
- coldtea 6y ago
  Err, the ex-soviet countries are cut-throat capitalist, mostly the same way early western countries were (the "robber baron" era). Not the best counter-example!
  - h91wka 6y ago
    Are they? Russia, for example, is neo-feudalist, not capitalist.
    - coldtea 6y ago
      Many western countries had similar strongmen. Some even had a bona fide royalty class, lording over common people, and then their sons, and grandsons lording in turn... That aside, modern Russia has tons of capitalists... Crony capitalism is still capitalism, and there are tons of proper companies there besides. Not everything is owned by some government-friendly mafioso. But when a regime collapses, like USSR did and there's a power vacuum that's what usually evolves for a while...
      - h91wka 6y ago
        > That aside, modern Russia has tons of capitalists They are the least protected class, who live under constant threat of business extortion by corrupt government clerks. That's pretty much the opposite of "cut-throat capitalism".
        coldtea 6y ago
        >They are the least protected class, who live under constant threat of business extortion by corrupt government clerks. Not exactly, they are the ones who are friendly with the corrupt government clerks. It's not like government trumps capitalism, it's more like capitalists own friends in high places... So same as in most countries...
- vetinari 6y ago
  > See general state of development/corruption for all ex-soviet countries versus the rest of the developed world. The delta in development between ex-USSR countries vs. the West has only increased since 1991 (the fall of USSR). So whatever they do today means they are doing worse job than they were doing under communism.
axegon_ 6y ago
Some of us come from countries which have experienced communism first hand. Been there, done that, no thanks, keep me out of it next time. As a Polish(iirc, I could be wrong) saying goes, "Capitalism is a system on the edge of a tall cliff. Communism is one step ahead."
- jahaja 6y ago
  Are your general belief that people supporting Socialism today looks to the USSR as a role model?
  - axegon_ 6y ago
    Pffff... Beats me to be fair. I consider myself a centrist as far as ideology goes, slightly leaning towards the right. In eastern Europe, the left-wing supporters are largely the elderly. You are very unlikely to find young people supporting the idea, even less so among those who have had experience with it. The support for the left and socialism in these regions then is simply a reflection of what the USSR model was, whether it's blind and fanatical ideology, nostalgia or what is effectively brainwashing (the evil west spies killing babies and all the other conspiracy theories). Truth be told they are incredibly similar to Alex Jones and his views, the only difference I see is the packaging. Looking at the socialists in central and western Europe, as well as across the ocean, I have a hard time figuring out what it is they are aiming for or support. Which is not to say that I don't think that people like Trump or Bojo are not morons. They absolutely are and this is what actually worries me - superpowers that end up choosing between those two options. That terrifies me.
  - iagovar 6y ago
    IDK his POV, but in mine, I believe most people supporting Socialism has no role model, in part because there hasn't been any Socalism that worked out, so they end up talking about this mythical socialist unicorn. Some of them believe that Venezuela and Cuba are just fine. I'm talking about Spain.
- asjw 6y ago
  In my opinion that's one view, coming from an extreme form of rulership that was established (especially in Poland) after what happened during WW2: nazi occupation, mass deportations, concentration camps etc. etc. I come from the country with the largest communist party in the West and I believe it helped the people here to get more freedom and social justice that they would have achieved otherwise
a3n 6y ago
I am anti communist for the things documented in, for example, The Black Book of Communism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_black_book_of_communism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_black_book_of_communism For context, I'm not a McCarthyite, nor a conservative.
- vetinari 6y ago
  It is perfecly fine to be anti-communist, the Churchill quote about communist and conservative is especially apt, but calling out to The Black Book of Communism just dimishes and cheapens your points. Even the co-authors disassociated themselves due to the way the main author framing of the issue - basically turning the book into a simplistic propaganda tool.
reitanqild 6y ago
Most of us have read history. Little known fact: as a young teenager I was a fan of the idea of communism. Then I realized that every attempt at communism, except possibly the kibbutz movement in Israel, has ended in horrible famines, genocides and general horror. So today say with everyone else: Let's not try that experiment again. Even my ex-colleague who is an actual communist admitted that he had mixed feelings about it: "enthusiastic believers like me are typically the first to get killed" he said.
- claudiawerner 6y ago
  > Most of us have read history. That's not the best argument, given that the Marxist school of history (as exemplified by Eric Hobsbawm, who was respected by historians on all sides) is quite popular among professional historians.
  - reitanqild 6y ago
    I don't understand how this is supposed to change anything? Every experiment with communism so far has ended with famine an/or genocide. I don't want to be part of another experiment and I don't want my friends to suffer it either.
    - claudiawerner 6y ago
      > I don't understand how this is supposed to change anything? Your argument was that those who are ignorant of history are in favor of Communism. This is cast into doubt by the fact that there are respected Marxist historians. Alain Badiou has some good arguments for "trying" Communism given its history; in particular, he has the example of Fermat's Last Theorem, which for hundreds of years had many attempts at solutions, each of which ending in failure (sometimes disastrous), though many of which opened new areas of mathematics. He argues that previous attempts at creating Communist society likewise have given rise to key insights and questions, which we are in a more prepared position to answer - he names two in particular: the Paris Commune and the Shanghai Commune (two examples you may have forgotten about) which raise such questions. Many people, communists or not, do not want to suffer under capitalism, and they don't want their friends to do so either.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
coldtea 6y ago
Many here are American, and even when not, they are financially conservative startup / VC / make-it-rich kind of people...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dang 6y ago
Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological tangents. They're tedious and predictable—people always say the same things, and it usually turns nasty. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20ideolog&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

batmansmk 6y ago

France's police uses Linux for 10 years now, a specific Ubuntu distro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GendBuntu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GendBuntu