I don't hear it so much in arrangement, but in things like harmonic rhythm or harmonies. So that means we disagree, because harmonic rhythm is an aspect of the

I don't hear it so much in arrangement, but in things like harmonic rhythm or harmonies. So that means we disagree, because harmonic rhythm is an aspect of the "music" by anybody's definition. I wrote about a couple examples here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22104132 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22104132 I don't think "amateurish" is a good word. It's more of an extremely accomplished work but needing an additional round of editing. Stuff which would have been obvious to Beethoven had he actually been able to hear it, but since he never got the chance to, it never got corrected.