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This comes up a lot, nobody is literally chained to their desks. Democracy in the workplace comes from voting with your feet and taking another job at another c

This comes up a lot, nobody is literally chained to their desks. Democracy in the workplace comes from voting with your feet and taking another job at another company. It's not perfect, particularly for lower income people, but it's also not slavery and generally the arc of worker rights is improving through time. You could make a case that some of the current anger in the united states is because COVID's destruction of the economy has removed that freedom to switch jobs (as the jobs have gone) demonstrating how important it is.

dangus 6y ago
It is far beyond imperfect. Let’s say I work at Kroger. I don’t like the way I’m treated, so I quit. Now the remaining grocery stores I can work for owned by Albertsons or Amazon. What kind of choice is that? Pick any other industry and you’re likely to find similar problems. It would be really interesting to see what mandatory democratic corporate governance might look like. Or, perhaps, fixing union regulations so that unions don’t have a bunch of downsides for the employee or other regulatory issues that seem to have directly led to their decline.
- ericd 6y ago
  You’re not limited to grocery stores. The fundamental problem is that there’s less demand for unskilled US labor than there are unskilled US laborers looking for work. Fix that, and most of the issues people are worried about go away. That likely has to be solved at the federal or international government level.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
rcoder 6y ago
> It's not perfect, particularly for lower income people... I don't think many minimum-wage retail or service workers can just "vote with their feet" and easily get another job, especially if you don't consider major changes in location and hours to be a non-starter. For folks with kids, or who depend on public transit to get to work, "up and moving" isn't really an option. If you're one missed paycheck away from eviction, bankruptcy, or arrest due to missed fines or court fees then you can't play "hardball" with your employer. Saying the arc of history improves overall cruelly glosses over the reality today for millions of Americans.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > Saying the arc of history improves overall cruelly glosses over the reality today for millions of Americans. No it doesn't. Medical understanding and technology has gotten way better over the centuries, and people still die of things that could have been handled. Acknowledging progress doesn't imply perfection, but progress.
- throwaway2048 6y ago
  voting with your feet is almost certainly going to land you what is basically an equally shitty job when you have no leverage.
jtr1 6y ago
Personally, I'd love it if everyone could easily vote with their feet. I think there's more overlap between certain libertarian and socialist visions of the economy than most people realize. In our current system, there's a lot of factors that prevent people from voting with their feet: healthcare, location, switching costs, and availability of jobs being chief among them, but also newer phenomena like non-compete contracts.
- WalterBright 6y ago
  Non-compete contracts tend to be unenforceable.
  - learc83 6y ago
    They tend to be unenforceable in California, they certainly aren't unenforceable in other states.
    - WalterBright 6y ago
      Yeah, they are unenforceable in other states, and in all of them if they are determined to be unreasonable in court. https://www.legalnature.com/guides/are-non-compete-agreements-enforceable-in-my-state https://www.legalnature.com/guides/are-non-compete-agreement...
      - learc83 6y ago
        >Yeah, they are unenforceable in other states Yes there are other states that have similar limits, and many other states that don't. >and in all of them if they are determined to be unreasonable in court That's a tautology. A court can refuse to enforce any contract for many reasons. The problem is that what may be considered unreasonable in California might not be in Georgia. It's also not super helpful for someone who can't afford a lawyer to fight it. Or for someone who can't find another job because companies don't want to deal with the hassle.
        6y ago
kulig 6y ago
Most people cannot simply walk away from a job. Thats a seriously clueless take. Only people with an established career and plenty of connections can even consider just walking away.
eli_gottlieb 6y ago
>Democracy in the workplace comes from voting with your feet and taking another job at another company. Democracy is about voice, not exit.
wpietri 6y ago
I don't think, "we've mostly gotten rid of actual leg irons" is the paen to worker's rights you think it is. To the extent slavery was outlawed, that happened 150 years ago. In many ways, things have gotten worse for the average worker since that era. (If you don't believe me, read Lincoln himself. [1]) Fair conditions grow out of equal power. But a fundamental problem with managerialist capitalism is an imbalance of power that will never be solved with vote-with-your-feet slogans. You have one job. A CEO has tens, hundreds, thousands of employees. It's always easier for a boss to fuck you over than it is for you to push back. Individual action is not enough to fix that. [1] Foner's "The Firey Trial" is a good look at Lincoln's ideas, including what he has to say about labor. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0044XV6G6/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0044XV6G6/

dangus 6y ago

It is far beyond imperfect. Let’s say I work at Kroger. I don’t like the way I’m treated, so I quit. Now the remaining grocery stores I can work for owned by Albertsons or Amazon. What kind of choice is that? Pick any other industry and you’re likely to find similar problems. It would be really interesting to see what mandatory democratic corporate governance might look like. Or, perhaps, fixing union regulations so that unions don’t have a bunch of downsides for the employee or other regulatory issues that seem to have directly led to their decline.

ericd 6y ago
You’re not limited to grocery stores. The fundamental problem is that there’s less demand for unskilled US labor than there are unskilled US laborers looking for work. Fix that, and most of the issues people are worried about go away. That likely has to be solved at the federal or international government level.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

rcoder 6y ago

> It's not perfect, particularly for lower income people... I don't think many minimum-wage retail or service workers can just "vote with their feet" and easily get another job, especially if you don't consider major changes in location and hours to be a non-starter. For folks with kids, or who depend on public transit to get to work, "up and moving" isn't really an option. If you're one missed paycheck away from eviction, bankruptcy, or arrest due to missed fines or court fees then you can't play "hardball" with your employer. Saying the arc of history improves overall cruelly glosses over the reality today for millions of Americans.

luckylion 6y ago
> Saying the arc of history improves overall cruelly glosses over the reality today for millions of Americans. No it doesn't. Medical understanding and technology has gotten way better over the centuries, and people still die of things that could have been handled. Acknowledging progress doesn't imply perfection, but progress.
throwaway2048 6y ago
voting with your feet is almost certainly going to land you what is basically an equally shitty job when you have no leverage.

jtr1 6y ago

Personally, I'd love it if everyone could easily vote with their feet. I think there's more overlap between certain libertarian and socialist visions of the economy than most people realize. In our current system, there's a lot of factors that prevent people from voting with their feet: healthcare, location, switching costs, and availability of jobs being chief among them, but also newer phenomena like non-compete contracts.

WalterBright 6y ago
Non-compete contracts tend to be unenforceable.
- learc83 6y ago
  They tend to be unenforceable in California, they certainly aren't unenforceable in other states.
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    Yeah, they are unenforceable in other states, and in all of them if they are determined to be unreasonable in court. https://www.legalnature.com/guides/are-non-compete-agreements-enforceable-in-my-state https://www.legalnature.com/guides/are-non-compete-agreement...
    - learc83 6y ago
      >Yeah, they are unenforceable in other states Yes there are other states that have similar limits, and many other states that don't. >and in all of them if they are determined to be unreasonable in court That's a tautology. A court can refuse to enforce any contract for many reasons. The problem is that what may be considered unreasonable in California might not be in Georgia. It's also not super helpful for someone who can't afford a lawyer to fight it. Or for someone who can't find another job because companies don't want to deal with the hassle.
      - 6y ago

kulig 6y ago

Most people cannot simply walk away from a job. Thats a seriously clueless take. Only people with an established career and plenty of connections can even consider just walking away.

eli_gottlieb 6y ago

>Democracy in the workplace comes from voting with your feet and taking another job at another company. Democracy is about voice, not exit.

wpietri 6y ago

I don't think, "we've mostly gotten rid of actual leg irons" is the paen to worker's rights you think it is. To the extent slavery was outlawed, that happened 150 years ago. In many ways, things have gotten worse for the average worker since that era. (If you don't believe me, read Lincoln himself. [1]) Fair conditions grow out of equal power. But a fundamental problem with managerialist capitalism is an imbalance of power that will never be solved with vote-with-your-feet slogans. You have one job. A CEO has tens, hundreds, thousands of employees. It's always easier for a boss to fuck you over than it is for you to push back. Individual action is not enough to fix that. [1] Foner's "The Firey Trial" is a good look at Lincoln's ideas, including what he has to say about labor. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0044XV6G6/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0044XV6G6/