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The Obama administration was supportive of consent decrees which force reforms (with penalties) on otherwise recalcitrant police departments. The current justic

The Obama administration was supportive of consent decrees which force reforms (with penalties) on otherwise recalcitrant police departments. The current justice department will not such consent decrees, and this is exactly the wall we in Minnesota are going to run into As we attempt to force change on our police department.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> The current justice department will not such consent decrees Well, plus the current administration outright abandoned investigations and publicly stated that it opposed the idea of investigating local law enforcement for systematic issues. It's not just an issue of neglecting an important tool of enforcement when the department now fairly overtly opposes the idea of enforcement.
- pnw_hazor 6y ago
  Can't Minneapolis do its own investigation? And institute the reforms it needs?
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    To the extent that it is a systemic problem in Minneapolis, self-investigation would be compromised. Could Ferguson have investigated itself? Sure, and it did. Unsurprisingly, that investigation by the system that the federal investigations found deeply and thoroughly broken somehow missed the problems with the same system that the federal investigation found. But, yes, and the State of Minnesota could also investigate.
    - pnw_hazor 6y ago
      Hire outside investigators, appoint/deputize independent lawyers to be special prosecutors, etc. Most states of cities with police problems have very strong civil rights laws (often stronger than federal protections) -- they have the legal tools to make real change happen. They don't need the DOJ to fix their problems. Relying on the DOJ makes sense if the local government is supportive of the bad policing -- like back in the civil rights/segregation era. Some states would not comply so the feds had to make things happen. You don't have that situation today.
      - tsimionescu 6y ago
        Again, the problem is that localities with systemic police problems almost by definition lack the will to investigate and fix those problems.
        pnw_hazor 6y ago
        Vote those people out then. I know it is easier said than done, but I don't hear too many calling for the mayor of Minneapolis or city council members to be recalled. Someone in the staff advocated for the current police contract, why not start by firing them? Or maybe the problem is not as important to local progressive governments as it is being to made out to be?
        mcguire 6y ago
        It looks like the Minneapolis City Council is up for election next year? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis_City_Council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis_City_Council) If everyone hasn't forgotten all about this by that time, you could make police reform a major election issue. And then hold them to it. But, odds are, everyone will have forgotten by then.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > Hire outside investigators, appoint/deputize independent lawyers to be special prosecutors, etc. And if it's a systemic problem in the local government, both the choices of the “independent” investigators and the shopping of their remit, and the decision of whether to do it at all will be affected by the systemic problem. > Most states of cities with police problems have very strong civil rights laws (often stronger than federal protections. Which helps not at all when the people and institutions responsible for enforcing the law are part of the problem.
  - germinalphrase 6y ago
    That is happening.
mindslight 6y ago
But this is the same pattern where the executive branch just takes ever more power for themselves, under a belief that it will be wielded appropriately. The Obama administration could have prosecuted fully and given the corrupt police departments and officers definite punishments, instead of putting a settlement leash on them that just got handed off to the next President to be let go of.
pnw_hazor 6y ago
Minneapolis controls its own police force, why do the progressives that run that town need the DOJ to step in? Put the reforms in the next contract. Set training and certification standards that exclude bad or lazy cops. Take the cops guns away, or whatever. Blaming the federal government for local police problems in cities like Minneapolis does not make sense.
- germinalphrase 6y ago
  It’s not blame. It’s just another step of the process. We have a long history of empowering and protecting police - both culturally and legally. There are limits to what that process youdescribed will allow. The police department/union will never enact certain reforms or give up certain powers willingly, so they won’t make it into the contract. The state government leadership will investigate/demand reforms/potentially file civil rights violations against the police department - but if the department is obstinate in the face of those changes - the federal government has stronger incentives to enact reforms that the community, the governor, and the legislature want.
  - pnw_hazor 6y ago
    I don't get it, if the police are an existential problem, fire them all and do a reset. Who is protecting them?
    - ivalm 6y ago
      You can’t literally fire all the police in a city, without at least significant state support. You do need someone to respond to emergencies/keep peace.
    - germinalphrase 6y ago
      Do you not believe that the federal government has a role to play in helping solve significant state level issues? I mean - I’m pro-cop. I have police officers in my family, and I wish the solutions were as straightforward as you seem to believe everything they are; however, the fact that we have the same reoccurring concerns - year after year, decade after decade - strongly suggests that this is not easy or straightforward.
jeegsy 6y ago
I never liked the sound of consent decrees. It sounded too much a decree as in dictatorship but 'orwellianized' to pass the smell test in a nominal democracy.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> The current justice department will not such consent decrees Well, plus the current administration outright abandoned investigations and publicly stated that it opposed the idea of investigating local law enforcement for systematic issues. It's not just an issue of neglecting an important tool of enforcement when the department now fairly overtly opposes the idea of enforcement.

pnw_hazor 6y ago
Can't Minneapolis do its own investigation? And institute the reforms it needs?
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  To the extent that it is a systemic problem in Minneapolis, self-investigation would be compromised. Could Ferguson have investigated itself? Sure, and it did. Unsurprisingly, that investigation by the system that the federal investigations found deeply and thoroughly broken somehow missed the problems with the same system that the federal investigation found. But, yes, and the State of Minnesota could also investigate.
  - pnw_hazor 6y ago
    Hire outside investigators, appoint/deputize independent lawyers to be special prosecutors, etc. Most states of cities with police problems have very strong civil rights laws (often stronger than federal protections) -- they have the legal tools to make real change happen. They don't need the DOJ to fix their problems. Relying on the DOJ makes sense if the local government is supportive of the bad policing -- like back in the civil rights/segregation era. Some states would not comply so the feds had to make things happen. You don't have that situation today.
    - tsimionescu 6y ago
      Again, the problem is that localities with systemic police problems almost by definition lack the will to investigate and fix those problems.
      - pnw_hazor 6y ago
        Vote those people out then. I know it is easier said than done, but I don't hear too many calling for the mayor of Minneapolis or city council members to be recalled. Someone in the staff advocated for the current police contract, why not start by firing them? Or maybe the problem is not as important to local progressive governments as it is being to made out to be?
      - mcguire 6y ago
        It looks like the Minneapolis City Council is up for election next year? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis_City_Council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis_City_Council) If everyone hasn't forgotten all about this by that time, you could make police reform a major election issue. And then hold them to it. But, odds are, everyone will have forgotten by then.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Hire outside investigators, appoint/deputize independent lawyers to be special prosecutors, etc. And if it's a systemic problem in the local government, both the choices of the “independent” investigators and the shopping of their remit, and the decision of whether to do it at all will be affected by the systemic problem. > Most states of cities with police problems have very strong civil rights laws (often stronger than federal protections. Which helps not at all when the people and institutions responsible for enforcing the law are part of the problem.
- germinalphrase 6y ago
  That is happening.

mindslight 6y ago

But this is the same pattern where the executive branch just takes ever more power for themselves, under a belief that it will be wielded appropriately. The Obama administration could have prosecuted fully and given the corrupt police departments and officers definite punishments, instead of putting a settlement leash on them that just got handed off to the next President to be let go of.

pnw_hazor 6y ago

Minneapolis controls its own police force, why do the progressives that run that town need the DOJ to step in? Put the reforms in the next contract. Set training and certification standards that exclude bad or lazy cops. Take the cops guns away, or whatever. Blaming the federal government for local police problems in cities like Minneapolis does not make sense.

germinalphrase 6y ago
It’s not blame. It’s just another step of the process. We have a long history of empowering and protecting police - both culturally and legally. There are limits to what that process youdescribed will allow. The police department/union will never enact certain reforms or give up certain powers willingly, so they won’t make it into the contract. The state government leadership will investigate/demand reforms/potentially file civil rights violations against the police department - but if the department is obstinate in the face of those changes - the federal government has stronger incentives to enact reforms that the community, the governor, and the legislature want.
- pnw_hazor 6y ago
  I don't get it, if the police are an existential problem, fire them all and do a reset. Who is protecting them?
  - ivalm 6y ago
    You can’t literally fire all the police in a city, without at least significant state support. You do need someone to respond to emergencies/keep peace.
  - germinalphrase 6y ago
    Do you not believe that the federal government has a role to play in helping solve significant state level issues? I mean - I’m pro-cop. I have police officers in my family, and I wish the solutions were as straightforward as you seem to believe everything they are; however, the fact that we have the same reoccurring concerns - year after year, decade after decade - strongly suggests that this is not easy or straightforward.

jeegsy 6y ago

I never liked the sound of consent decrees. It sounded too much a decree as in dictatorship but 'orwellianized' to pass the smell test in a nominal democracy.