8 ms·

This is an argument a lot of non-authoritarian socialists make: democracy only governs the few hours when people are not sleeping or at work, so a deeper, fulle

by jtr1 6y ago

This is an argument a lot of non-authoritarian socialists make: democracy only governs the few hours when people are not sleeping or at work, so a deeper, fuller democracy would include running workplaces democratically as well. Whether by employee-elected boards, cooperatives, democratically run unions (a necessary distinction), or some other form of collective control, that the consent of the governed is a question for all situations in which people find decisions about their lives being made.

technotony 6y ago
This comes up a lot, nobody is literally chained to their desks. Democracy in the workplace comes from voting with your feet and taking another job at another company. It's not perfect, particularly for lower income people, but it's also not slavery and generally the arc of worker rights is improving through time. You could make a case that some of the current anger in the united states is because COVID's destruction of the economy has removed that freedom to switch jobs (as the jobs have gone) demonstrating how important it is.
- dangus 6y ago
  It is far beyond imperfect. Let’s say I work at Kroger. I don’t like the way I’m treated, so I quit. Now the remaining grocery stores I can work for owned by Albertsons or Amazon. What kind of choice is that? Pick any other industry and you’re likely to find similar problems. It would be really interesting to see what mandatory democratic corporate governance might look like. Or, perhaps, fixing union regulations so that unions don’t have a bunch of downsides for the employee or other regulatory issues that seem to have directly led to their decline.
  - ericd 6y ago
    You’re not limited to grocery stores. The fundamental problem is that there’s less demand for unskilled US labor than there are unskilled US laborers looking for work. Fix that, and most of the issues people are worried about go away. That likely has to be solved at the federal or international government level.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- rcoder 6y ago
  > It's not perfect, particularly for lower income people... I don't think many minimum-wage retail or service workers can just "vote with their feet" and easily get another job, especially if you don't consider major changes in location and hours to be a non-starter. For folks with kids, or who depend on public transit to get to work, "up and moving" isn't really an option. If you're one missed paycheck away from eviction, bankruptcy, or arrest due to missed fines or court fees then you can't play "hardball" with your employer. Saying the arc of history improves overall cruelly glosses over the reality today for millions of Americans.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > Saying the arc of history improves overall cruelly glosses over the reality today for millions of Americans. No it doesn't. Medical understanding and technology has gotten way better over the centuries, and people still die of things that could have been handled. Acknowledging progress doesn't imply perfection, but progress.
  - throwaway2048 6y ago
    voting with your feet is almost certainly going to land you what is basically an equally shitty job when you have no leverage.
- jtr1 6y ago
  Personally, I'd love it if everyone could easily vote with their feet. I think there's more overlap between certain libertarian and socialist visions of the economy than most people realize. In our current system, there's a lot of factors that prevent people from voting with their feet: healthcare, location, switching costs, and availability of jobs being chief among them, but also newer phenomena like non-compete contracts.
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    Non-compete contracts tend to be unenforceable.
    - learc83 6y ago
      They tend to be unenforceable in California, they certainly aren't unenforceable in other states.
      - WalterBright 6y ago
        Yeah, they are unenforceable in other states, and in all of them if they are determined to be unreasonable in court. https://www.legalnature.com/guides/are-non-compete-agreements-enforceable-in-my-state https://www.legalnature.com/guides/are-non-compete-agreement...
        learc83 6y ago
        >Yeah, they are unenforceable in other states Yes there are other states that have similar limits, and many other states that don't. >and in all of them if they are determined to be unreasonable in court That's a tautology. A court can refuse to enforce any contract for many reasons. The problem is that what may be considered unreasonable in California might not be in Georgia. It's also not super helpful for someone who can't afford a lawyer to fight it. Or for someone who can't find another job because companies don't want to deal with the hassle.
        6y ago
- kulig 6y ago
  Most people cannot simply walk away from a job. Thats a seriously clueless take. Only people with an established career and plenty of connections can even consider just walking away.
- eli_gottlieb 6y ago
  >Democracy in the workplace comes from voting with your feet and taking another job at another company. Democracy is about voice, not exit.
- wpietri 6y ago
  I don't think, "we've mostly gotten rid of actual leg irons" is the paen to worker's rights you think it is. To the extent slavery was outlawed, that happened 150 years ago. In many ways, things have gotten worse for the average worker since that era. (If you don't believe me, read Lincoln himself. [1]) Fair conditions grow out of equal power. But a fundamental problem with managerialist capitalism is an imbalance of power that will never be solved with vote-with-your-feet slogans. You have one job. A CEO has tens, hundreds, thousands of employees. It's always easier for a boss to fuck you over than it is for you to push back. Individual action is not enough to fix that. [1] Foner's "The Firey Trial" is a good look at Lincoln's ideas, including what he has to say about labor. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0044XV6G6/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0044XV6G6/
megaman821 6y ago
It seems that all the forms of collective control you listed are perfectly legal. If the majority of workers prefer workplaces like that then those places will thrive. What you are implying though, is that the government forces all workplaces to conform to your desired control scheme. So fuller democracy equals government limiting choice, as long as it is your desired choice.
- zorked 6y ago
  That's a bit like saying "Here we are in 1650 under an absolute monarchy. The people are the majority, they could topple our illegitimate hereditary government and make it a democracy, but they haven't done it yet because they certainly prefer things this way".
  - megaman821 6y ago
    Not at all. If the people tried to topple the monarchy, they would be actively in conflict with the military. I am pretty sure you can start a co-op without risking conflict with the military. Can you tell me the exact things the government is preventing people from doing in this case?
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      Another metaphor: "Linux is open and free, it can be a major desktop OS if everyone just switched to it, but because they haven't they obviously don't care for it."
      - megaman821 6y ago
        Not to go off on a tangent but what you said is true, most people don't care about Linux...or Windows, or MacOS. They have a general apathy to whatever desktop OS they use, with a slight bias to whatever they used last. People just want to use the applications they want and need. Perhaps the same statement would apply to workplace control. Most people have a general apathy to their workplace governance and only care about their pay and benefits. I really don't know how you make people care about things, but compelling a change that people are free to make today by government force is last on my list of things to try.
Aunche 6y ago
Democracy is not an efficient way of running a business. Look at the multi-trillion dollar deficit as an example. Workers are incentivized to choose themselves over the health of the company or the customer. Also, people overwhelmingly would rather exchange their stake in the company for the equivalent value in cash. It's only when the company's valuation skyrockets when they retroactively declare this to be unfair.
- WalterBright 6y ago
  I often hear people complain about others making money in the stock market, so I suggest they invest in stocks, too. They respond saying it's too risky.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    I thought index funds have become the mainstream investment vehicle of the last ten years.
    - WalterBright 6y ago
      Index funds do not monotonically increase, either.
  - devalgo 6y ago
    >They respond saying it's too risky Well it literally is. If they are talking about Wall St. bankers they have no way to replicate the results of those people. Wall Street can make poorly thought out multi-trillion dollar bets on housing bonds and when they go bust they get bailed out and still get their Christmas Bonuses. There is no similar mechanism to protect a non-institutional investor from similar levels of risk.
    - WalterBright 6y ago
      There are plenty of stocks besides mortgage derivatives, and plenty of ordinary people making money off of stocks. If you want to sit on the sidelines because it's too risky for you, that's fine. But don't then complain that others make money on stocks. You, and anyone else, can buy FAANG stocks, index funds, or whatever.
CinchWrench 6y ago
The 4-Hour Life problem.

by jtr1 6y ago

technotony 6y ago

This comes up a lot, nobody is literally chained to their desks. Democracy in the workplace comes from voting with your feet and taking another job at another company. It's not perfect, particularly for lower income people, but it's also not slavery and generally the arc of worker rights is improving through time. You could make a case that some of the current anger in the united states is because COVID's destruction of the economy has removed that freedom to switch jobs (as the jobs have gone) demonstrating how important it is.

dangus 6y ago
It is far beyond imperfect. Let’s say I work at Kroger. I don’t like the way I’m treated, so I quit. Now the remaining grocery stores I can work for owned by Albertsons or Amazon. What kind of choice is that? Pick any other industry and you’re likely to find similar problems. It would be really interesting to see what mandatory democratic corporate governance might look like. Or, perhaps, fixing union regulations so that unions don’t have a bunch of downsides for the employee or other regulatory issues that seem to have directly led to their decline.
- ericd 6y ago
  You’re not limited to grocery stores. The fundamental problem is that there’s less demand for unskilled US labor than there are unskilled US laborers looking for work. Fix that, and most of the issues people are worried about go away. That likely has to be solved at the federal or international government level.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
rcoder 6y ago
> It's not perfect, particularly for lower income people... I don't think many minimum-wage retail or service workers can just "vote with their feet" and easily get another job, especially if you don't consider major changes in location and hours to be a non-starter. For folks with kids, or who depend on public transit to get to work, "up and moving" isn't really an option. If you're one missed paycheck away from eviction, bankruptcy, or arrest due to missed fines or court fees then you can't play "hardball" with your employer. Saying the arc of history improves overall cruelly glosses over the reality today for millions of Americans.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > Saying the arc of history improves overall cruelly glosses over the reality today for millions of Americans. No it doesn't. Medical understanding and technology has gotten way better over the centuries, and people still die of things that could have been handled. Acknowledging progress doesn't imply perfection, but progress.
- throwaway2048 6y ago
  voting with your feet is almost certainly going to land you what is basically an equally shitty job when you have no leverage.
jtr1 6y ago
Personally, I'd love it if everyone could easily vote with their feet. I think there's more overlap between certain libertarian and socialist visions of the economy than most people realize. In our current system, there's a lot of factors that prevent people from voting with their feet: healthcare, location, switching costs, and availability of jobs being chief among them, but also newer phenomena like non-compete contracts.
- WalterBright 6y ago
  Non-compete contracts tend to be unenforceable.
  - learc83 6y ago
    They tend to be unenforceable in California, they certainly aren't unenforceable in other states.
    - WalterBright 6y ago
      Yeah, they are unenforceable in other states, and in all of them if they are determined to be unreasonable in court. https://www.legalnature.com/guides/are-non-compete-agreements-enforceable-in-my-state https://www.legalnature.com/guides/are-non-compete-agreement...
      - learc83 6y ago
        >Yeah, they are unenforceable in other states Yes there are other states that have similar limits, and many other states that don't. >and in all of them if they are determined to be unreasonable in court That's a tautology. A court can refuse to enforce any contract for many reasons. The problem is that what may be considered unreasonable in California might not be in Georgia. It's also not super helpful for someone who can't afford a lawyer to fight it. Or for someone who can't find another job because companies don't want to deal with the hassle.
        6y ago
kulig 6y ago
Most people cannot simply walk away from a job. Thats a seriously clueless take. Only people with an established career and plenty of connections can even consider just walking away.
eli_gottlieb 6y ago
>Democracy in the workplace comes from voting with your feet and taking another job at another company. Democracy is about voice, not exit.
wpietri 6y ago
I don't think, "we've mostly gotten rid of actual leg irons" is the paen to worker's rights you think it is. To the extent slavery was outlawed, that happened 150 years ago. In many ways, things have gotten worse for the average worker since that era. (If you don't believe me, read Lincoln himself. [1]) Fair conditions grow out of equal power. But a fundamental problem with managerialist capitalism is an imbalance of power that will never be solved with vote-with-your-feet slogans. You have one job. A CEO has tens, hundreds, thousands of employees. It's always easier for a boss to fuck you over than it is for you to push back. Individual action is not enough to fix that. [1] Foner's "The Firey Trial" is a good look at Lincoln's ideas, including what he has to say about labor. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0044XV6G6/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0044XV6G6/

megaman821 6y ago

It seems that all the forms of collective control you listed are perfectly legal. If the majority of workers prefer workplaces like that then those places will thrive. What you are implying though, is that the government forces all workplaces to conform to your desired control scheme. So fuller democracy equals government limiting choice, as long as it is your desired choice.

zorked 6y ago
That's a bit like saying "Here we are in 1650 under an absolute monarchy. The people are the majority, they could topple our illegitimate hereditary government and make it a democracy, but they haven't done it yet because they certainly prefer things this way".
- megaman821 6y ago
  Not at all. If the people tried to topple the monarchy, they would be actively in conflict with the military. I am pretty sure you can start a co-op without risking conflict with the military. Can you tell me the exact things the government is preventing people from doing in this case?
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    Another metaphor: "Linux is open and free, it can be a major desktop OS if everyone just switched to it, but because they haven't they obviously don't care for it."
    - megaman821 6y ago
      Not to go off on a tangent but what you said is true, most people don't care about Linux...or Windows, or MacOS. They have a general apathy to whatever desktop OS they use, with a slight bias to whatever they used last. People just want to use the applications they want and need. Perhaps the same statement would apply to workplace control. Most people have a general apathy to their workplace governance and only care about their pay and benefits. I really don't know how you make people care about things, but compelling a change that people are free to make today by government force is last on my list of things to try.

Aunche 6y ago

Democracy is not an efficient way of running a business. Look at the multi-trillion dollar deficit as an example. Workers are incentivized to choose themselves over the health of the company or the customer. Also, people overwhelmingly would rather exchange their stake in the company for the equivalent value in cash. It's only when the company's valuation skyrockets when they retroactively declare this to be unfair.

WalterBright 6y ago
I often hear people complain about others making money in the stock market, so I suggest they invest in stocks, too. They respond saying it's too risky.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  I thought index funds have become the mainstream investment vehicle of the last ten years.
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    Index funds do not monotonically increase, either.
- devalgo 6y ago
  >They respond saying it's too risky Well it literally is. If they are talking about Wall St. bankers they have no way to replicate the results of those people. Wall Street can make poorly thought out multi-trillion dollar bets on housing bonds and when they go bust they get bailed out and still get their Christmas Bonuses. There is no similar mechanism to protect a non-institutional investor from similar levels of risk.
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    There are plenty of stocks besides mortgage derivatives, and plenty of ordinary people making money off of stocks. If you want to sit on the sidelines because it's too risky for you, that's fine. But don't then complain that others make money on stocks. You, and anyone else, can buy FAANG stocks, index funds, or whatever.

CinchWrench 6y ago

The 4-Hour Life problem.