5 ms·

I think it's amazing that out of all the things Huawei has been accused of doing the thing that got them officially in trouble is reselling American servers.

by sct202 6y ago

jorblumesea 6y ago
It wasn't ever going to be IP theft, corporate espionage or anything like that. The CCP has made it clear they have no will to enforce anything like that. Most likely, most of Huawei's behavior is state sanctioned anyways. They have close but opaque connections to the government, and China has been known to support domestic industries with government actions. Pretty much the only way they were ever going to be punished is if they did something like this.
- yorwba 6y ago
  > The CCP has made it clear they have no will to enforce anything like that. Could you point me to an official statement to that effect? Patent infringement lawsuits in China definitely paint a different picture: foreign companies are more likely to win and awarded higher damages than Chinese companies: https://patentlyo.com/patent/2018/02/things-infringement-litigation.html https://patentlyo.com/patent/2018/02/things-infringement-lit...
  - EricE 6y ago
    "Could you point me to an official statement to that effect?" LMAO - are you for real? That article still doesn't exactly paint a rosey picture - and that's if you can believe the numbers they release. If they are willing to lie substantially about something as serious as a virus do you seriously think they are going to be 100% transparent about something that could wreak their economy?
    - yorwba 6y ago
      Those are not "numbers they release". They are statistics collected by a researcher who read court proceedings of 1663 patent infringement cases decided in China in 2014. (EDIT: Originally said "all" cases and "between 2014 and 2018". As virtue3 points out below, that was incorrect). It's not something that can be manipulated by just changing a number in a spreadsheet.
      - virtue3 6y ago
        See Chao Ma, Xiaohong Yu & Haibo He, Data Analysis: Report on the Publication of Chinese Judicial Decisions on the Internet, China Law Review 12(4), 2016: 208. (Table 10 lists the ratios of the number of judicial documents of each province publicly available on CJO to the number of cases adjudicated in each province, ranging from 15.17% to 78.14%.) So cherry-picked cases that range from 15-78% of the data set. 1.6k patent cases over multiple years seems -extremely- low to me. The USA has roughly 3-4x that per year. https://law.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Revised-Stanford-August-4-2016-Class-Presentation.pdf https://law.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Revised-...
        yorwba 6y ago
        > So cherry-picked cases that range from 15-78% of the data set. That's a fair point, although what kind of case would be a "cherry" is not clear to me. Both a foreign company winning (implying that patent infringement happened) and losing (possibly feeding suspicion that the judicial system is biased against foreigners) could end up making China look bad. > 1.6k patent cases over multiple years seems -extremely- low to me. My mistake. When I checked the blog post by the author of the paper for a date range, I thought it was since 2014 (and until publication in 2018), but actually those cases were all in 2014. (See page 10 of the paper.)
        jialutu 6y ago
        Doesn't the US have a huge problem with IP trolls? It's really hard to get an accurate figure when the US can just issue IPs like it's no one's business and can to go to court to dispute these equally as easily. At least here in Europe, it's a lot more difficult to file for patents, I've not found any conclusive numbers, but if you can extrapolate from these numbers here I would say that the US is the outlyer rather than the norm https://www.simmons-simmons.com/en/publications/ck0d2ofe9u6dh0b8588o5p7om/080218-how-much-patent-litigation-is-there-in-europe-other-countries https://www.simmons-simmons.com/en/publications/ck0d2ofe9u6d...
      - ganoushoreilly 6y ago
        And the Chinese court system isn't rule by Law.. it's easily manipulated by outside influence and personal opinions. I wouldn't trust any conviction results from their court systems.
- thre42343 6y ago
  > They have close but opaque connections to the government, You could say this of the US too; SV is almost blatant about this.
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    It's actually the opposite: SV lobbies the US govt, but China dictates what their companies do.
mrcorona 6y ago
Didnt we sanction Iran for no reason? Seems the right thing to do is ignore US sanctions when seeing unjust actions.
- filoleg 6y ago
  >Seems the right thing to do is ignore US sanctions when seeing unjust actions. Just like with breaking any laws, including those you deem to be "unjust", don't be surprised when you get hit with very expected legal consequences for doing so.
  - mrcorona 6y ago
    I mean as a country... during the covid period China sent tons of medical supplies to help sanctioned Iran. I also don't think we should lock up the execs at the medical supply manufacturing companies because they were doing the just thing. I think most of the countries on the planet should start to ignore these US sanctions when they are based on nonsense, especially when the underlying reasons are "regime change" related. Start routing around the SWIFT system as well.
    - DeonPenny 6y ago
      I think you might want to ask yourself why they don't. Ås much as people whine about America. Trust is needed between countries at this level. I feel like America is calling the world's bluff. They are saying if you trust china so much Europe go partner with them we'll be ok.
    - filoleg 6y ago
      Two things: One, medical masks don't seem to fall under the sanctions (according to the quick wikipedia article skimming I just did [0]), especially since they were donated, so it seems perfectly fine and legal. Two, according to the same article, EU also has sanctions against Iran (with some differences from sanctions imposed by the US), so it is unfair to say that the US is the sole country posing those sanctions. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_against_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_agains...
alacombe 6y ago
Al Capone went down on tax evasion scheme, nothing else.

I think it's amazing that out of all the things Huawei has been accused of doing the thing that got them officially in trouble is reselling American servers.

by sct202 6y ago

I think it's amazing that out of all the things Huawei has been accused of doing the thing that got them officially in trouble is reselling American servers.

jorblumesea 6y ago

It wasn't ever going to be IP theft, corporate espionage or anything like that. The CCP has made it clear they have no will to enforce anything like that. Most likely, most of Huawei's behavior is state sanctioned anyways. They have close but opaque connections to the government, and China has been known to support domestic industries with government actions. Pretty much the only way they were ever going to be punished is if they did something like this.

yorwba 6y ago
> The CCP has made it clear they have no will to enforce anything like that. Could you point me to an official statement to that effect? Patent infringement lawsuits in China definitely paint a different picture: foreign companies are more likely to win and awarded higher damages than Chinese companies: https://patentlyo.com/patent/2018/02/things-infringement-litigation.html https://patentlyo.com/patent/2018/02/things-infringement-lit...
- EricE 6y ago
  "Could you point me to an official statement to that effect?" LMAO - are you for real? That article still doesn't exactly paint a rosey picture - and that's if you can believe the numbers they release. If they are willing to lie substantially about something as serious as a virus do you seriously think they are going to be 100% transparent about something that could wreak their economy?
  - yorwba 6y ago
    Those are not "numbers they release". They are statistics collected by a researcher who read court proceedings of 1663 patent infringement cases decided in China in 2014. (EDIT: Originally said "all" cases and "between 2014 and 2018". As virtue3 points out below, that was incorrect). It's not something that can be manipulated by just changing a number in a spreadsheet.
    - virtue3 6y ago
      See Chao Ma, Xiaohong Yu & Haibo He, Data Analysis: Report on the Publication of Chinese Judicial Decisions on the Internet, China Law Review 12(4), 2016: 208. (Table 10 lists the ratios of the number of judicial documents of each province publicly available on CJO to the number of cases adjudicated in each province, ranging from 15.17% to 78.14%.) So cherry-picked cases that range from 15-78% of the data set. 1.6k patent cases over multiple years seems -extremely- low to me. The USA has roughly 3-4x that per year. https://law.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Revised-Stanford-August-4-2016-Class-Presentation.pdf https://law.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Revised-...
      - yorwba 6y ago
        > So cherry-picked cases that range from 15-78% of the data set. That's a fair point, although what kind of case would be a "cherry" is not clear to me. Both a foreign company winning (implying that patent infringement happened) and losing (possibly feeding suspicion that the judicial system is biased against foreigners) could end up making China look bad. > 1.6k patent cases over multiple years seems -extremely- low to me. My mistake. When I checked the blog post by the author of the paper for a date range, I thought it was since 2014 (and until publication in 2018), but actually those cases were all in 2014. (See page 10 of the paper.)
      - jialutu 6y ago
        Doesn't the US have a huge problem with IP trolls? It's really hard to get an accurate figure when the US can just issue IPs like it's no one's business and can to go to court to dispute these equally as easily. At least here in Europe, it's a lot more difficult to file for patents, I've not found any conclusive numbers, but if you can extrapolate from these numbers here I would say that the US is the outlyer rather than the norm https://www.simmons-simmons.com/en/publications/ck0d2ofe9u6dh0b8588o5p7om/080218-how-much-patent-litigation-is-there-in-europe-other-countries https://www.simmons-simmons.com/en/publications/ck0d2ofe9u6d...
    - ganoushoreilly 6y ago
      And the Chinese court system isn't rule by Law.. it's easily manipulated by outside influence and personal opinions. I wouldn't trust any conviction results from their court systems.
thre42343 6y ago
> They have close but opaque connections to the government, You could say this of the US too; SV is almost blatant about this.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  It's actually the opposite: SV lobbies the US govt, but China dictates what their companies do.

mrcorona 6y ago

Didnt we sanction Iran for no reason? Seems the right thing to do is ignore US sanctions when seeing unjust actions.

filoleg 6y ago
>Seems the right thing to do is ignore US sanctions when seeing unjust actions. Just like with breaking any laws, including those you deem to be "unjust", don't be surprised when you get hit with very expected legal consequences for doing so.
- mrcorona 6y ago
  I mean as a country... during the covid period China sent tons of medical supplies to help sanctioned Iran. I also don't think we should lock up the execs at the medical supply manufacturing companies because they were doing the just thing. I think most of the countries on the planet should start to ignore these US sanctions when they are based on nonsense, especially when the underlying reasons are "regime change" related. Start routing around the SWIFT system as well.
  - DeonPenny 6y ago
    I think you might want to ask yourself why they don't. Ås much as people whine about America. Trust is needed between countries at this level. I feel like America is calling the world's bluff. They are saying if you trust china so much Europe go partner with them we'll be ok.
  - filoleg 6y ago
    Two things: One, medical masks don't seem to fall under the sanctions (according to the quick wikipedia article skimming I just did [0]), especially since they were donated, so it seems perfectly fine and legal. Two, according to the same article, EU also has sanctions against Iran (with some differences from sanctions imposed by the US), so it is unfair to say that the US is the sole country posing those sanctions. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_against_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_agains...

alacombe 6y ago

Al Capone went down on tax evasion scheme, nothing else.