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"Why would a dedicated camera need to take huge numbers of photos to overcome sensor noise when it's not there in the first place?" You have clearly never look

"Why would a dedicated camera need to take huge numbers of photos to overcome sensor noise when it's not there in the first place?" You have clearly never looked at unprocessed RAW data from the sensor or you wouldn't be saying something so completely wrong.

centimeter 6y ago
Signal to noise ratio on any “real” camera format (FF, APSC, MFT) is vastly superior to SNR on a cell phone camera. It’s not even in the same ballpark. PhotonsToPhotos has a lot of numerical comparisons available.
- hn_check 6y ago
  Firstly, I was responding to the claim that sensor noise "isn't there" on a dedicated camera [1], fullstop, which is ludicrously wrong. Without processing what comes out of the sensor is an ugly beast. Secondly, strange that you don't actually link anything to demonstrate this noise advantage. Much less that it's "vastly superior" and "not even in the same ballpark". Hint -- because it isn't. [1] - which is a revealing bit of cargo cult analysis. Sensor quality across "dedicated" cameras have enormous variations, and a lot are simply terrible. One of the reasons smartphones do burst and computational photography is for extended dynamic range, yet the iPhone 11 already has a sensor with more dynamic range than the significant majority of SLRs/mirrorless cameras. There are obviously better sensors, like the A7R II+, but there are many that are worse, sometimes much worse.
  - centimeter 6y ago
    > Secondly, strange that you don't actually link anything I told you the name of the website where you should look. How explicit do I have to be for you? Here's a link if it helps. https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm Compare an iPhone XS Max to a an A7R4 or something. At ISO 100, The A7R4 has 11.6 bits of dynamic range and the iPhone has 6.4 bits. HUGE difference. > Without processing what comes out of the sensor is an ugly beast. RAWs from a large sensor without denoising look fine. On my camera I only have lens correction and color correction - zero denoising. I've done statistical analysis of dark frames using LibRaw to make sure this is actually the case, and indeed I exactly replicated the results from PhotonsToPhotos. > yet the iPhone 11 already has a sensor with more dynamic range than the significant majority of SLRs/mirrorless cameras Hahahaha, please, show me one even APS-C camera from Sony, Fuji, Nikon, Canon, or any other reputable manufacturer made in the last 4 years that has a worse PDR than the iPhone 11.
    - hn_check 6y ago
      "How explicit do I have to be for you?" Then you link to a dynamic range chart. Yet we were talking about noise. See, I looked at their noise charts where the XS Max (a generation behind, and significantly bested by the 11) beat the majority of SLRs, including contemporary SLRs. Tellingly you decided not to link that. "Compare an iPhone XS Max to a an A7R4 or something" Oh you know...an A7R4 or something. The fact that the A7R4 has one of the best sensors on an SLR is just, you know, incidental. Fun fact - the iPhone 11 has 10 stops (10 "bits") of dynamic range, which exceeds the majority of SLRs on that site (and of those that beat it, few are "vastly superior"). The sensor actually has 12 stops of dynamic range but automatic pre-processing knocks it down 2 stops (though there are tools that circumvent that). "Hahahahaha". "RAWs from a large sensor without denoising look fine." You have never seen the actual RAW data, plainly evident from this claim. Do you know what a Bayer filter is? Do you realize the enormous amount of processing it does just to recreate edges and other artifacts? I suspect you don't. Do you know that every sensor has permanently lit elements, permanently dark elements, and permanently errant elements? That the camera has an evolving correction matrix around these artefacts? The amount of processing that turns that bayer sensor array into a so-called "RAW" file is absolutely enormous, and it automatically includes a tremendous amount of smoothing and corrections, even if you, the ignorant user, remain blissfully unaware. When manufacturers push out new firmware, changes to these processing steps is often one of the most noted changes. So to repeat- -the iPhone 11 has better dynamic range, single shot, than many SLRs. -the iPhone 11 has a better noise profile than many SLRs. And I'm just talking about the iPhone 11 as a very common smartphone. There are smartphones that exceed it now, the point being that many smartphones have superb cameras. These are facts. There are SLRs that are much better, like the recent A7s, but any cargo culting as if the entire category gives you a superior result is simple ignorance.
      - centimeter 6y ago
        > The sensor actually has 12 stops of dynamic range but automatic pre-processing knocks it down 2 stops (though there are tools that circumvent that). "Hahahahaha". This comment suggests you don’t even remotely understand the poisson statistics underlying sensor noise, or else it would be obvious why they “knock off” those two bits. The SNR of the iPhone sensor is fundamentally limited by the size of the capacitors at each photosite. > You have never seen the actual RAW data Yes I have, and my mention of “libraw” should have been a clue for you. > Do you know what a Bayer filter is? Yes. I also know about X-trans filters, foveon, etc. I’m fairly confident I can out-namedrop you here ;) > the iPhone 11 has better dynamic range, single shot, than many SLRs. > the iPhone 11 has a better noise profile than many SLRs. Give me a specific SLR in the last 4 years where either of these is true. The data is right there on photonstophotos, so go ahead. You’re going to have a hard time, and if you understood the physics of how a CMOS sensor works you’d know why.

centimeter 6y ago

Signal to noise ratio on any “real” camera format (FF, APSC, MFT) is vastly superior to SNR on a cell phone camera. It’s not even in the same ballpark. PhotonsToPhotos has a lot of numerical comparisons available.

hn_check 6y ago
Firstly, I was responding to the claim that sensor noise "isn't there" on a dedicated camera [1], fullstop, which is ludicrously wrong. Without processing what comes out of the sensor is an ugly beast. Secondly, strange that you don't actually link anything to demonstrate this noise advantage. Much less that it's "vastly superior" and "not even in the same ballpark". Hint -- because it isn't. [1] - which is a revealing bit of cargo cult analysis. Sensor quality across "dedicated" cameras have enormous variations, and a lot are simply terrible. One of the reasons smartphones do burst and computational photography is for extended dynamic range, yet the iPhone 11 already has a sensor with more dynamic range than the significant majority of SLRs/mirrorless cameras. There are obviously better sensors, like the A7R II+, but there are many that are worse, sometimes much worse.
- centimeter 6y ago
  > Secondly, strange that you don't actually link anything I told you the name of the website where you should look. How explicit do I have to be for you? Here's a link if it helps. https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm Compare an iPhone XS Max to a an A7R4 or something. At ISO 100, The A7R4 has 11.6 bits of dynamic range and the iPhone has 6.4 bits. HUGE difference. > Without processing what comes out of the sensor is an ugly beast. RAWs from a large sensor without denoising look fine. On my camera I only have lens correction and color correction - zero denoising. I've done statistical analysis of dark frames using LibRaw to make sure this is actually the case, and indeed I exactly replicated the results from PhotonsToPhotos. > yet the iPhone 11 already has a sensor with more dynamic range than the significant majority of SLRs/mirrorless cameras Hahahaha, please, show me one even APS-C camera from Sony, Fuji, Nikon, Canon, or any other reputable manufacturer made in the last 4 years that has a worse PDR than the iPhone 11.
  - hn_check 6y ago
    "How explicit do I have to be for you?" Then you link to a dynamic range chart. Yet we were talking about noise. See, I looked at their noise charts where the XS Max (a generation behind, and significantly bested by the 11) beat the majority of SLRs, including contemporary SLRs. Tellingly you decided not to link that. "Compare an iPhone XS Max to a an A7R4 or something" Oh you know...an A7R4 or something. The fact that the A7R4 has one of the best sensors on an SLR is just, you know, incidental. Fun fact - the iPhone 11 has 10 stops (10 "bits") of dynamic range, which exceeds the majority of SLRs on that site (and of those that beat it, few are "vastly superior"). The sensor actually has 12 stops of dynamic range but automatic pre-processing knocks it down 2 stops (though there are tools that circumvent that). "Hahahahaha". "RAWs from a large sensor without denoising look fine." You have never seen the actual RAW data, plainly evident from this claim. Do you know what a Bayer filter is? Do you realize the enormous amount of processing it does just to recreate edges and other artifacts? I suspect you don't. Do you know that every sensor has permanently lit elements, permanently dark elements, and permanently errant elements? That the camera has an evolving correction matrix around these artefacts? The amount of processing that turns that bayer sensor array into a so-called "RAW" file is absolutely enormous, and it automatically includes a tremendous amount of smoothing and corrections, even if you, the ignorant user, remain blissfully unaware. When manufacturers push out new firmware, changes to these processing steps is often one of the most noted changes. So to repeat- -the iPhone 11 has better dynamic range, single shot, than many SLRs. -the iPhone 11 has a better noise profile than many SLRs. And I'm just talking about the iPhone 11 as a very common smartphone. There are smartphones that exceed it now, the point being that many smartphones have superb cameras. These are facts. There are SLRs that are much better, like the recent A7s, but any cargo culting as if the entire category gives you a superior result is simple ignorance.
    - centimeter 6y ago
      > The sensor actually has 12 stops of dynamic range but automatic pre-processing knocks it down 2 stops (though there are tools that circumvent that). "Hahahahaha". This comment suggests you don’t even remotely understand the poisson statistics underlying sensor noise, or else it would be obvious why they “knock off” those two bits. The SNR of the iPhone sensor is fundamentally limited by the size of the capacitors at each photosite. > You have never seen the actual RAW data Yes I have, and my mention of “libraw” should have been a clue for you. > Do you know what a Bayer filter is? Yes. I also know about X-trans filters, foveon, etc. I’m fairly confident I can out-namedrop you here ;) > the iPhone 11 has better dynamic range, single shot, than many SLRs. > the iPhone 11 has a better noise profile than many SLRs. Give me a specific SLR in the last 4 years where either of these is true. The data is right there on photonstophotos, so go ahead. You’re going to have a hard time, and if you understood the physics of how a CMOS sensor works you’d know why.