8 ms·

It’s not a viewpoint, it’s a fact. Important difference.

by Cyph0n 6y ago

Lammy 6y ago
The 'crazies' seem to do an okay job sharing the reality they perceive. Don't limit yourself with a belief that only one viewpoint on a given topic is The One Truth™. A person's sincere belief in something is what that makes that thing true.
- Cyph0n 6y ago
  I’m not “limiting” myself at all. I simply don’t care enough to waste my time. Arguing with flat earthers gets tiring very quickly.
- mthoms 6y ago
  I agreed when you said you shouldn't call people crazy. But this... >A person's sincere belief in something is what that makes that thing true. ...is dangerous B.S. As they saying goes — People are entitled to their own opinions, they aren't entitled to their own facts.
  - Lammy 6y ago
    Yeah, I get it. But then you have to define 'fact', and as far as I can tell the only thing that makes something factual is when enough people share the same opinion about it.
    - mthoms 6y ago
      >the only thing that makes something factual is when enough people share the same opinion about it. You've got it wrong. Religion is a perfect example. What makes something factual is overwhelming evidence and expert consensus. It's not a 100% foolproof system but it's as close as we humans are ever going to get. Ideas presented by people without good evidence are not entitled to serious consideration. Especially when those ideas contradict all existing evidence. We need to stop normalizing this very dangerous notion that people can have their own "facts".
      - Lammy 6y ago
        That definition of fact is incomplete since it still depends on being able to agree on the fact of who you consider an expert.
        mthoms 6y ago
        The simple answer, once again, is we choose our experts based on evidence. By default, the experts in any particular area are the people who have proven they are (based on evidence of education and work experience). The fun fact is, anyone can challenge an expert opinion. Just present compelling evidence that supports your claim. It's okay to have alternate opinions, but don't try and argue they are valid just because you "chose" a different "expert" to believe. Present evidence or GTFO. Please, go troll someone else with your circular reasoning nonsense. You're not being insightful or intellectual, you're being childish.
        Lammy 6y ago
        I think my reasoning seems circular because we're talking about different things, but I doubt there's one single fact that all 8 billion of us would agree on. Let's try moving our focus of value away from the contents of peoples' beliefs and toward the knowledge that people sincerely believe them and we value the people. I agree that some beliefs (e.g. the vaccine stuff) are actively harmful, but from where I'm sitting it seems like browbeating everyone until they agree with us hasn't been working out too well these last few years. You can keep trying that and hoping for different results, but I've found more actual success in these matters by changing my own views in the way I'm describing. It's hard to have a conversation with someone who is telling you you're being insincere, ya know? :)
        mthoms 6y ago
        > I doubt there's one single fact that all 8 billion of us would agree on. So, we should cater to the lowest common denominator of human intelligence/education? Sorry but no. That's both illogical and impractical. > Let's try moving our focus of value away from the contents of peoples' beliefs and toward the knowledge that people sincerely believe them and we value the people[...] it seems like browbeating everyone until they agree with us hasn't been working out too well [...] One can be tactful and understanding without compromising truth. The definition of words matter. You can't tell people their alternate views are "facts" or "truths" just because they believe them. As (I think) we've agreed, strong evidence is required before we can describe an idea as anything approaching truth. > A person's sincere belief in something is what that makes that thing true. and > the only thing that makes something factual is when enough people share the same opinion about it. Attempting to bend the meaning of the words "truth" and "fact" to include "opinion" is an extraordinarily dangerous idea. The end result can only be an Orwellian nightmare where nothing, and everything, is true. I don't want to live in that world. >It's hard to have a conversation with someone who is telling you you're being insincere, You seemed insincere because you were exclusively responding with drive by, single sentence comments whose only goal was to disingenuously poke a hole in the previous comment via circular reasoning. You weren't presenting an actual coherent argument (until now). I think your approach is great. Let's be more empathetic and understanding. Let's educate people about objective reasoning and evidence-based approaches. But, let's do it without compromising truth.

It’s not a viewpoint, it’s a fact. Important difference.

by Cyph0n 6y ago

It’s not a viewpoint, it’s a fact. Important difference.

The 'crazies' seem to do an okay job sharing the reality they perceive. Don't limit yourself with a belief that only one viewpoint on a given topic is The One Truth™. A person's sincere belief in something is what that makes that thing true.

Cyph0n 6y ago
I’m not “limiting” myself at all. I simply don’t care enough to waste my time. Arguing with flat earthers gets tiring very quickly.
mthoms 6y ago
I agreed when you said you shouldn't call people crazy. But this... >A person's sincere belief in something is what that makes that thing true. ...is dangerous B.S. As they saying goes — People are entitled to their own opinions, they aren't entitled to their own facts.
- Lammy 6y ago
  Yeah, I get it. But then you have to define 'fact', and as far as I can tell the only thing that makes something factual is when enough people share the same opinion about it.
  - mthoms 6y ago
    >the only thing that makes something factual is when enough people share the same opinion about it. You've got it wrong. Religion is a perfect example. What makes something factual is overwhelming evidence and expert consensus. It's not a 100% foolproof system but it's as close as we humans are ever going to get. Ideas presented by people without good evidence are not entitled to serious consideration. Especially when those ideas contradict all existing evidence. We need to stop normalizing this very dangerous notion that people can have their own "facts".
    - Lammy 6y ago
      That definition of fact is incomplete since it still depends on being able to agree on the fact of who you consider an expert.
      - mthoms 6y ago
        The simple answer, once again, is we choose our experts based on evidence. By default, the experts in any particular area are the people who have proven they are (based on evidence of education and work experience). The fun fact is, anyone can challenge an expert opinion. Just present compelling evidence that supports your claim. It's okay to have alternate opinions, but don't try and argue they are valid just because you "chose" a different "expert" to believe. Present evidence or GTFO. Please, go troll someone else with your circular reasoning nonsense. You're not being insightful or intellectual, you're being childish.
        Lammy 6y ago
        I think my reasoning seems circular because we're talking about different things, but I doubt there's one single fact that all 8 billion of us would agree on. Let's try moving our focus of value away from the contents of peoples' beliefs and toward the knowledge that people sincerely believe them and we value the people. I agree that some beliefs (e.g. the vaccine stuff) are actively harmful, but from where I'm sitting it seems like browbeating everyone until they agree with us hasn't been working out too well these last few years. You can keep trying that and hoping for different results, but I've found more actual success in these matters by changing my own views in the way I'm describing. It's hard to have a conversation with someone who is telling you you're being insincere, ya know? :)
        mthoms 6y ago
        > I doubt there's one single fact that all 8 billion of us would agree on. So, we should cater to the lowest common denominator of human intelligence/education? Sorry but no. That's both illogical and impractical. > Let's try moving our focus of value away from the contents of peoples' beliefs and toward the knowledge that people sincerely believe them and we value the people[...] it seems like browbeating everyone until they agree with us hasn't been working out too well [...] One can be tactful and understanding without compromising truth. The definition of words matter. You can't tell people their alternate views are "facts" or "truths" just because they believe them. As (I think) we've agreed, strong evidence is required before we can describe an idea as anything approaching truth. > A person's sincere belief in something is what that makes that thing true. and > the only thing that makes something factual is when enough people share the same opinion about it. Attempting to bend the meaning of the words "truth" and "fact" to include "opinion" is an extraordinarily dangerous idea. The end result can only be an Orwellian nightmare where nothing, and everything, is true. I don't want to live in that world. >It's hard to have a conversation with someone who is telling you you're being insincere, You seemed insincere because you were exclusively responding with drive by, single sentence comments whose only goal was to disingenuously poke a hole in the previous comment via circular reasoning. You weren't presenting an actual coherent argument (until now). I think your approach is great. Let's be more empathetic and understanding. Let's educate people about objective reasoning and evidence-based approaches. But, let's do it without compromising truth.