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> ...system breaks down when a handful of Republicans... Sorry to burst your bubble, but it isn't just Republicans who resort to... creative executive strategi

> ...system breaks down when a handful of Republicans... Sorry to burst your bubble, but it isn't just Republicans who resort to... creative executive strategies that are worth criticizing.

malnourish 6y ago
I'm sorry, but "both sides" arguments are nothing but a deflection.
- arminiusreturns 6y ago
  No, it really isn't, because in the end the oligarchs own both sides, full fucking stop. You can argue about the degree of harm, but almost always that approach is used to argue the degree of harm selectively about one particular partisan angle, and it's frankly bullshit. Obama just put on a nice face and was eloquent while he expanded the surveillance engine, the drone wars, the arms shipments to unstable third world countries, bailouts for billionaires, etc. Trump is brazen and up front about it, but the end result is still the same bullshit! Cops sending agent provocateurs in to justify kettling protestors happened under Obama too. That doesn't justify it in the Trump era either though! So tired of hearing this trite and cliched response anytime someone brings up that the corruption permeates the entirety of the policy elite establishment. The DNC and RNC (both corporations, never mentioned in the constitution) would rather work together in collusion than allow any real change to happen (as they did in the early 90s to control the debates), and until people wake up to the fact they won't be able to understand why nothing is changing. It just becomes a pendulum swing back and forth every few years while the inverted totalitarian kleptocratic oligarchic corporatists retain power in the shadows. Lets just spit some real facts here. Blackmail operations such as Epstein was at the front of, are a core part of how this has happened. He is a great example of how the corruption knows no party lines, but that's also why he was taken out, the story buried and convoluted, and half-assed coverup stories like netflix's latest doc are put out. The greatest thing the oligarchy fears is a united people... and the ol party lines and any other divide they can drum up is good at keeping us at each others throats instead of theirs. It's time to wake up and break out of the cycle. Or not. If not, we are Rome headed for a mighty and bloody collapse of epic proportions. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Top down compromise of a centralized system becomes increasingly trivial the further the compromise progresses.
- dvtrn 6y ago
  Is it “deflecting” to point out how much Democrats benefit form gerrymandering while taking Republicans to task for the same thing? [0][1][2]. What about about senate confirmations[3][4][5]? [0] https://thefulcrum.us/worst-gerrymandering-districts-example?rebelltitem=10#rebelltitem10 https://thefulcrum.us/worst-gerrymandering-districts-example... [1] https://www.thedailybeast.com/democrats-hate-gerrymanderingexcept-when-they-get-to-do-it https://www.thedailybeast.com/democrats-hate-gerrymanderinge... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/03/28/how-maryland-democrats-pulled-off-their-aggressive-gerrymander/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/03/28/how-m... [3] https://www.heritage.org/homeland-security/commentary/hypocrisy-the-nuclear-option https://www.heritage.org/homeland-security/commentary/hypocr... [4] https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/senate-nuclear-filibuster-rules/story?id=20964700 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/senate-nuclear-filibuster-ru... [5] https://time.com/3701079/obama-filibuster/ https://time.com/3701079/obama-filibuster/ If we don’t wanna go there that’s fine I suppose, I just want to know where we’re gonna draw the line between “deflection” and having a substantive discussion on the gamesmanship going on inside the beltway without devolving into the usual brutish “my side good, your side bad”.
  - dlp211 6y ago
    You can't ascribe singular districts to Democrats gerrymandering. The ones in Ohio, Texas, Alabama, NC, Mich were all done by Republican legislatures, some using REDMap. And while Maryland is certainly an offender and they too should be subject to independent redistricting, comparing a single state with a concerted, organized, multistage effort using advanced mapping software designed to maximize your advantage is the kind of bullshit bothsiderism that the right and the apolitical love to use. Stop punishing one party for not being perfect but striving for better, but letting the other off for the most blatantly obvious destructive practices because that is who they are.
    - dvtrn 6y ago
      Stop punishing one party for not being perfect but striving for better, but letting the other off for the most blatantly obvious destructive practices because that is who they are. Hang on, you think that’s what I’m doing here? I don’t think we have a thing to discuss if this is really the immediate conclusion you’re coming to, since it frames my entire position as antagonistic to anything but whatever critique you think should be made instead, and there’s no way out of that corner for me, now is there? How am I even supposed to respond to an assertion about what I’m doing when providing numerous sources for my position only to get boxed in as “letting the other off for the most blatantly obvious destructive practices”? I’m no partisan hack, Gerrymandering and Senate Procedure are probably the best examples of how both parties engage in pure unabated gamesmanship to get what they want while launching strikes against the other side for doing the exact same thing. Either argue the impact and convince me why the rules are inconsistently applied (as I’ve shown clearly was the case with Harry Reid changing Senate confirmation rules) or don’t, but leave the straw manning at the door.’ BOTH parties deserve a wag of the finger and a volume of criticism for their behavior where warranted. This should not be excused by anyone who pretends to give a damn about the country.
- markus_zhang 6y ago
  Have to realize that they are two faces of the same shit, and the "Vote" route doesn't help either.
- refurb 6y ago
  Call it deflecting, but it's true. Neither parties hands are clean.

> ...system breaks down when a handful of Republicans... Sorry to burst your bubble, but it isn't just Republicans who resort to... creative executive strategies that are worth criticizing.

malnourish 6y ago

I'm sorry, but "both sides" arguments are nothing but a deflection.

arminiusreturns 6y ago
No, it really isn't, because in the end the oligarchs own both sides, full fucking stop. You can argue about the degree of harm, but almost always that approach is used to argue the degree of harm selectively about one particular partisan angle, and it's frankly bullshit. Obama just put on a nice face and was eloquent while he expanded the surveillance engine, the drone wars, the arms shipments to unstable third world countries, bailouts for billionaires, etc. Trump is brazen and up front about it, but the end result is still the same bullshit! Cops sending agent provocateurs in to justify kettling protestors happened under Obama too. That doesn't justify it in the Trump era either though! So tired of hearing this trite and cliched response anytime someone brings up that the corruption permeates the entirety of the policy elite establishment. The DNC and RNC (both corporations, never mentioned in the constitution) would rather work together in collusion than allow any real change to happen (as they did in the early 90s to control the debates), and until people wake up to the fact they won't be able to understand why nothing is changing. It just becomes a pendulum swing back and forth every few years while the inverted totalitarian kleptocratic oligarchic corporatists retain power in the shadows. Lets just spit some real facts here. Blackmail operations such as Epstein was at the front of, are a core part of how this has happened. He is a great example of how the corruption knows no party lines, but that's also why he was taken out, the story buried and convoluted, and half-assed coverup stories like netflix's latest doc are put out. The greatest thing the oligarchy fears is a united people... and the ol party lines and any other divide they can drum up is good at keeping us at each others throats instead of theirs. It's time to wake up and break out of the cycle. Or not. If not, we are Rome headed for a mighty and bloody collapse of epic proportions. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Top down compromise of a centralized system becomes increasingly trivial the further the compromise progresses.
dvtrn 6y ago
Is it “deflecting” to point out how much Democrats benefit form gerrymandering while taking Republicans to task for the same thing? [0][1][2]. What about about senate confirmations[3][4][5]? [0] https://thefulcrum.us/worst-gerrymandering-districts-example?rebelltitem=10#rebelltitem10 https://thefulcrum.us/worst-gerrymandering-districts-example... [1] https://www.thedailybeast.com/democrats-hate-gerrymanderingexcept-when-they-get-to-do-it https://www.thedailybeast.com/democrats-hate-gerrymanderinge... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/03/28/how-maryland-democrats-pulled-off-their-aggressive-gerrymander/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/03/28/how-m... [3] https://www.heritage.org/homeland-security/commentary/hypocrisy-the-nuclear-option https://www.heritage.org/homeland-security/commentary/hypocr... [4] https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/senate-nuclear-filibuster-rules/story?id=20964700 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/senate-nuclear-filibuster-ru... [5] https://time.com/3701079/obama-filibuster/ https://time.com/3701079/obama-filibuster/ If we don’t wanna go there that’s fine I suppose, I just want to know where we’re gonna draw the line between “deflection” and having a substantive discussion on the gamesmanship going on inside the beltway without devolving into the usual brutish “my side good, your side bad”.
- dlp211 6y ago
  You can't ascribe singular districts to Democrats gerrymandering. The ones in Ohio, Texas, Alabama, NC, Mich were all done by Republican legislatures, some using REDMap. And while Maryland is certainly an offender and they too should be subject to independent redistricting, comparing a single state with a concerted, organized, multistage effort using advanced mapping software designed to maximize your advantage is the kind of bullshit bothsiderism that the right and the apolitical love to use. Stop punishing one party for not being perfect but striving for better, but letting the other off for the most blatantly obvious destructive practices because that is who they are.
  - dvtrn 6y ago
    Stop punishing one party for not being perfect but striving for better, but letting the other off for the most blatantly obvious destructive practices because that is who they are. Hang on, you think that’s what I’m doing here? I don’t think we have a thing to discuss if this is really the immediate conclusion you’re coming to, since it frames my entire position as antagonistic to anything but whatever critique you think should be made instead, and there’s no way out of that corner for me, now is there? How am I even supposed to respond to an assertion about what I’m doing when providing numerous sources for my position only to get boxed in as “letting the other off for the most blatantly obvious destructive practices”? I’m no partisan hack, Gerrymandering and Senate Procedure are probably the best examples of how both parties engage in pure unabated gamesmanship to get what they want while launching strikes against the other side for doing the exact same thing. Either argue the impact and convince me why the rules are inconsistently applied (as I’ve shown clearly was the case with Harry Reid changing Senate confirmation rules) or don’t, but leave the straw manning at the door.’ BOTH parties deserve a wag of the finger and a volume of criticism for their behavior where warranted. This should not be excused by anyone who pretends to give a damn about the country.
markus_zhang 6y ago
Have to realize that they are two faces of the same shit, and the "Vote" route doesn't help either.
refurb 6y ago
Call it deflecting, but it's true. Neither parties hands are clean.