4 ms·

Studies like this do not settle that issue for me. This study is based solely on what the participants claim they spend money on. It's a core principle of the

Studies like this do not settle that issue for me. This study is based solely on what the participants claim they spend money on. It's a core principle of the study that the money is "no strings attached". That makes it useless as an actual study, IMO. Without a more comprehensive study of the budgets of people before and after, the idea that the money won't be spent well is a fair argument.

tekno45 6y ago
But we're seeing their quality of life improve. You don't see what they spent it on, but they have found a way to spend these funds to improve their situation.
- dahfizz 6y ago
  That wasn't the question. GP points out that that is completely obvious. Nobody would doubt that free money would make you happy without considering the economic issues of scaling the program. The issue is "are the recipients spending the money well"? Are they saving, and using the money to advance themselves, and budgeting? Or is it all going to "waste" and doing nothing productive?
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Why would you target productivity over quality of life? We're already more productive than at any point in human history. The productivity is why we can optimize for quality of life, not a justification for attempting to squeeze even more productivity out of citizens.
    - dahfizz 6y ago
      Sorry if I was unclear, I meant is the money being used productively (paying off debts, investing, buying products in bulk, etc). > Why would you target productivity over quality of life? I'm not sure that I do that, but the general public absolutely will. The taxpaying public will absolutely not tolerate a UBI that just funnels money into drug cartels, etc. You need to show that the UBI is useful or helpful somehow, not just that it makes people happy.
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        Takes time to win hearts and minds, and for the electorate to shift on issues [1]. No different than when Social Security and Medicare were radical ideas. Yang wasn't wrong, he was just early. Direct cash transfers have been shown to improve quality of life and pull people out of poverty. [2] Spain got something close [3] (but not exactly UBI) recently. I would not be surprised to see this trend continue, either voluntarily or because nation states exhaust all other options. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/20/a-wider-partisan-and-ideological-gap-between-younger-older-generations/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/20/a-wider-par... [2] https://www.google.com/search?q=direct+cash+transfers+poverty https://www.google.com/search?q=direct+cash+transfers+povert... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23351708 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23351708 (HN: Spain approves national minimum income scheme)
  - tekno45 6y ago
    Isn't the point actually to see if people's lives improve? If i get 2k a month and spend it on drugs, you don't see quality of life improve. It is being spent well because they are keeping a roof over their heads and themselves fed and not worrying about where thhe next meal comes from.
  - danans 6y ago
    > The issue is "are the recipients spending the money well"? Are they saving, and using the money to advance themselves, and budgeting? Or is it all going to "waste" and doing nothing productive? Even just spending it on better food, better clothes, or going to the movies is spending it well. It's UBI, intended to be used as a tool to put a floor on standard of living, not a scholarship or a 401k match.
nbadg 6y ago
All money is fungible. That's the point of UBI: let individuals decide for themselves what the best use of it is, instead of having the state decide for them. Different people have different wants and needs. Would you consider toys for children "spent well"? What about a netflix subscription? What if that netflix subscription gives the kids something to do while Mom goes to school? What about a babysitter, so parents can go out and feel human for once? What about a framed picture of a relative that just passed away? Improving financial literacy is a vital and often under-discussed component of successful UBI programs. I think it's crucially important we make programs explaining banking, savings, etc available (and maybe even required!) as part of UBI programs. These are absolutely necessary to give people the financial fundamentals they need to survive in a world that doesn't care enough about them to teach it effectively, if at all, in public schools. But if you're insisting on evaluating the success of UBI experiments based on what the recipients spend money on, instead of how it affects their quality of life and/or their financial trajectory... then you're completely missing the point of UBI.
- jonfw 6y ago
  > Different people have different wants and needs. Would you consider toys for children "spent well"? What about a netflix subscription? What if that netflix subscription gives the kids something to do while Mom goes to school? What about a babysitter, so parents can go out and feel human for once? What about a framed picture of a relative that just passed away All of those are good examples of money well spent, or at least fairly well spent. Bad examples would be things like drugs, alcohol, prostitutes, gambling, car/truck modifications, dirt bikes, ATVs, pornography, guns, etc. That's what people are concerned about, not photographs of your dead grandma.
  - milesvp 6y ago
    Well actually... guns tend to have an amazing return on investment. Every time a gun law passes, my buddy's gun collection goes up in value. But to be more serious. I hadn't really thought about it before, but the majority things in your list, while often considered trashy in american culture, all tend to have the potential to have big negative externalities. This could end up being a real problem for things like UBI. As an economist, I have some pretty severe reservations about UBI mostly at a meta level regarding unavoidable inflationary pressures that may all but negate the value of an UBI. But it could end up being even worse than I imagine if an UBI ends up flooding neighborhoods with an excess of high negative externality goods and services. Still, I've heard good things about the effects of direct cash transfers in very poor regions. They seem to be no more destructive than, say, giving cattle, while having lower overhead so more of the wealth is transferred. I understand much of the money ends up going towards things that more money conscious people might considered wasteful, but many indicators suggest there's still a general life improvement for those who receive the cash, even if the effects may be short lived. So I'm a little open minded about the concept in general.
benchtobedside 6y ago
Actually a portion of spending by participants in this study is tracked via pre-paid debit cards. To quote from the article: "Data show that since the pandemic started, food spending by SEED recipients increased nearly 25% over the monthly average. In March, it accounted for 46.5% of spending the researchers were able to track using prepaid debit cards"

tekno45 6y ago

But we're seeing their quality of life improve. You don't see what they spent it on, but they have found a way to spend these funds to improve their situation.

dahfizz 6y ago
That wasn't the question. GP points out that that is completely obvious. Nobody would doubt that free money would make you happy without considering the economic issues of scaling the program. The issue is "are the recipients spending the money well"? Are they saving, and using the money to advance themselves, and budgeting? Or is it all going to "waste" and doing nothing productive?
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Why would you target productivity over quality of life? We're already more productive than at any point in human history. The productivity is why we can optimize for quality of life, not a justification for attempting to squeeze even more productivity out of citizens.
  - dahfizz 6y ago
    Sorry if I was unclear, I meant is the money being used productively (paying off debts, investing, buying products in bulk, etc). > Why would you target productivity over quality of life? I'm not sure that I do that, but the general public absolutely will. The taxpaying public will absolutely not tolerate a UBI that just funnels money into drug cartels, etc. You need to show that the UBI is useful or helpful somehow, not just that it makes people happy.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      Takes time to win hearts and minds, and for the electorate to shift on issues [1]. No different than when Social Security and Medicare were radical ideas. Yang wasn't wrong, he was just early. Direct cash transfers have been shown to improve quality of life and pull people out of poverty. [2] Spain got something close [3] (but not exactly UBI) recently. I would not be surprised to see this trend continue, either voluntarily or because nation states exhaust all other options. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/20/a-wider-partisan-and-ideological-gap-between-younger-older-generations/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/20/a-wider-par... [2] https://www.google.com/search?q=direct+cash+transfers+poverty https://www.google.com/search?q=direct+cash+transfers+povert... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23351708 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23351708 (HN: Spain approves national minimum income scheme)
- tekno45 6y ago
  Isn't the point actually to see if people's lives improve? If i get 2k a month and spend it on drugs, you don't see quality of life improve. It is being spent well because they are keeping a roof over their heads and themselves fed and not worrying about where thhe next meal comes from.
- danans 6y ago
  > The issue is "are the recipients spending the money well"? Are they saving, and using the money to advance themselves, and budgeting? Or is it all going to "waste" and doing nothing productive? Even just spending it on better food, better clothes, or going to the movies is spending it well. It's UBI, intended to be used as a tool to put a floor on standard of living, not a scholarship or a 401k match.

nbadg 6y ago

All money is fungible. That's the point of UBI: let individuals decide for themselves what the best use of it is, instead of having the state decide for them. Different people have different wants and needs. Would you consider toys for children "spent well"? What about a netflix subscription? What if that netflix subscription gives the kids something to do while Mom goes to school? What about a babysitter, so parents can go out and feel human for once? What about a framed picture of a relative that just passed away? Improving financial literacy is a vital and often under-discussed component of successful UBI programs. I think it's crucially important we make programs explaining banking, savings, etc available (and maybe even required!) as part of UBI programs. These are absolutely necessary to give people the financial fundamentals they need to survive in a world that doesn't care enough about them to teach it effectively, if at all, in public schools. But if you're insisting on evaluating the success of UBI experiments based on what the recipients spend money on, instead of how it affects their quality of life and/or their financial trajectory... then you're completely missing the point of UBI.

jonfw 6y ago
> Different people have different wants and needs. Would you consider toys for children "spent well"? What about a netflix subscription? What if that netflix subscription gives the kids something to do while Mom goes to school? What about a babysitter, so parents can go out and feel human for once? What about a framed picture of a relative that just passed away All of those are good examples of money well spent, or at least fairly well spent. Bad examples would be things like drugs, alcohol, prostitutes, gambling, car/truck modifications, dirt bikes, ATVs, pornography, guns, etc. That's what people are concerned about, not photographs of your dead grandma.
- milesvp 6y ago
  Well actually... guns tend to have an amazing return on investment. Every time a gun law passes, my buddy's gun collection goes up in value. But to be more serious. I hadn't really thought about it before, but the majority things in your list, while often considered trashy in american culture, all tend to have the potential to have big negative externalities. This could end up being a real problem for things like UBI. As an economist, I have some pretty severe reservations about UBI mostly at a meta level regarding unavoidable inflationary pressures that may all but negate the value of an UBI. But it could end up being even worse than I imagine if an UBI ends up flooding neighborhoods with an excess of high negative externality goods and services. Still, I've heard good things about the effects of direct cash transfers in very poor regions. They seem to be no more destructive than, say, giving cattle, while having lower overhead so more of the wealth is transferred. I understand much of the money ends up going towards things that more money conscious people might considered wasteful, but many indicators suggest there's still a general life improvement for those who receive the cash, even if the effects may be short lived. So I'm a little open minded about the concept in general.

benchtobedside 6y ago

Actually a portion of spending by participants in this study is tracked via pre-paid debit cards. To quote from the article: "Data show that since the pandemic started, food spending by SEED recipients increased nearly 25% over the monthly average. In March, it accounted for 46.5% of spending the researchers were able to track using prepaid debit cards"