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I recently read that if you tend to think, "it's a shame that black people are being killed by cops like this, but the rioting and looting MUST stop," perhaps y

I recently read that if you tend to think, "it's a shame that black people are being killed by cops like this, but the rioting and looting MUST stop," perhaps you should consider thinking more like, "it's a shame that there is rioting and looting, but black people being killed by cops like this MUST stop."

ravenstine 6y ago
All ideas should be considered, but yours is not one I subscribe to. More people have been killed and had their lives destroyed as the result of non-protestors taking advantage of the protests to destroy communities. This is before the actual protests themselves have even been given a chance to succeed without violence. To subscribe to your perspective, I would have to believe that rioting and looting is the way to address police violence, and that the protesters and rioters are on the same page. If that were the case, then the country should be set on fire for the number of crimes it commits. Put simply, there's no need for a "but". Once can make both statements without implying that one has precedence over the other.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  How many people have these non-protestors killed? Are you talking about police or what you'd describe as rioters?
  - ravenstine 6y ago
    https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/866022166/protests-spread-nationwide-on-fourth-night-after-minneapolis-death-of-george-flo https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/866022166/protests-spread-nat... https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Police-Davenport-officer-shot-2-killings-15307948.php https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Police-Davenport-officer... https://www.foxnews.com/us/federal-law-enforcement-officer-killed-in-oakland-protest-identified https://www.foxnews.com/us/federal-law-enforcement-officer-k... https://www.foxnews.com/us/kentucky-man-killed-by-cops-who-didnt-have-body-cams-on-was-friend-to-local-police-fed-them-for-free https://www.foxnews.com/us/kentucky-man-killed-by-cops-who-d... https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/article/Police-Retired-St-Louis-police-captain-killed-15311605.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/article/Police-Retired... https://www.ibtimes.com/george-floyd-las-vegas-protests-1-police-officer-wounded-1-armed-man-killed-two-2986628 https://www.ibtimes.com/george-floyd-las-vegas-protests-1-po... https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/top-detroit-news-most-arrested-at-protests-were-from-suburbs-police-say-man-shot-killed-in-car/ar-BB14SNIo https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/top-detroit-news-most-arre... ---- Maybe there are more, and I think it's fortunate that the deaths don't appear to be excessively high. But I would still argue these people might not be dead or in critical condition if the rule of law wasn't out of control. I'm no fan of police, but that doesn't mean I don't think about how some kids may have lost a parent.
- ViViDboarder 6y ago
  > More people have been killed and had their lives destroyed as the result of non-protestors taking advantage of the protests to destroy communities. [Citation needed] I find it hard to believe that a few days of these riots has caused more damage and loss of life than generations of racial oppression and police brutality. If you’ve got a source, I’m all ears.
  - ravenstine 6y ago
    > [Citation needed] If you had simply asked me to share what I know, I would have given you some links. But I have a distaste for the "[Citation Needed]" meme because it's pompous, so I suggest you do some basic research yourself. If you can do 2nd grade arithmetic, you can figure out that 2 or more deaths is greater than 1 death. If you've even watched a minute of TV in the last 5 days, I shouldn't have to argue whether more people's lives have been destroyed than if the riots didn't happen at all. > I find it hard to believe that a few days of these riots has caused more damage and loss of life than generations of racial oppression and police brutality. That's not even close to what I said.
    - ViViDboarder 6y ago
      > If you had simply asked me to share what I know, I would have given you some links. But I have a distaste for the "[Citation Needed]" meme because it's pompous, Totally fair. That wasn’t very conservative. I’m sorry. > That's not even close to what I said. Could you clarify what you were saying? I directly quoted you, but I’ll admit your sentence isn’t clear. It says “More” but doesn’t indicate “more than what?”, so I assumed you meant the oppression that rioters are responding to. Maybe that’s not the case.
sanarothe 6y ago
Yes realistically it took a couple hundred residents about an hour to clean up La Mesa after the riot stopped. We lost a couple banks and a pizza hut. But its quite tenable. No one will mourn for the buildings or police cruisers.
rhino369 6y ago
There is no reason why it can't be "black people being killed by cops like this MUST stop" and "the rioting and looting MUST stop." Buried in your reasoning is the idea that the rioting and looting is helping reducing black deaths by cops. I see no reason to believe that. First, its directly putting people into violent conflict with police. So additional black people have been killed by police caused by the rioting. Second, innocent people are getting killed by the rioting. Third, there are people who would support police reform but are also terrified of looters and rioters. The riots are giving me a look at what my city looks like without police control, and it is scary. I know that police v. lawlessness is a false dichotomy and I reject that sort of thinking. There was a consensus that what happened to George Floyd was an atrocity. Even racists thought so. A huge peaceful protest would have raised awareness. Violence lost that consensus.
- golemiprague 6y ago
  I always thought the police in America is too violent comparing to other places but this is a race war, not a demonstration against police violence and if anything it shows me why the police is so violent there. If it was a demonstration against police violence it would have happened also when they kill white people because there are much more unjustified cases like that. I think the reason for police violence in the US are black people, they simply kill each other too much and from what I see act completely irrationally and with indiscriminate violence towards innocent people. No wonder the police is all the time on edge there and other races suffer because the police policies are created with black communities behaviour in mind, then they apply it also to peaceful people outside and inside the black community. I can't believe in all of this discussion nobody mention the way African Americans in the US behave, as if the police works in a vacuum and as if slavery that was abolished years ago is an excuse for what's going on there. I think people are too afraid to say what's on their mind because they will be called racist but deep inside that's what people think otherwise how comes half of the country voted for Trump but I don't see anybody here say what half of the country thinks?
- standardUser 6y ago
  Rioting and looting don't generally kill people. Cops do kill people, time and time again, and they usually get away with it. That's why it is absurd to equate the two. "There was a consensus that what happened to George Floyd was an atrocity." Who cares? Thinking something is an atrocity accomplished precisely jack shit. Peaceful protests get ignored or mocked. Police forces continue to get more militarized. Far right politicians, like the president, encourage violence from their bully pulpit. At a certain point, people need to respond. To not respond is to encourage those who seek to abuse power.
chillwaves 6y ago
Seriously. It's really telling how a few people rioting = all protesters bad! But you see cops being abusive and "It's just a few bad apples!" Anything to quell the cognitive dissonance.
oh_sigh 6y ago
I'd imagine the general public wants both to stop. It's not a choice to make for one or the other.

ravenstine 6y ago

All ideas should be considered, but yours is not one I subscribe to. More people have been killed and had their lives destroyed as the result of non-protestors taking advantage of the protests to destroy communities. This is before the actual protests themselves have even been given a chance to succeed without violence. To subscribe to your perspective, I would have to believe that rioting and looting is the way to address police violence, and that the protesters and rioters are on the same page. If that were the case, then the country should be set on fire for the number of crimes it commits. Put simply, there's no need for a "but". Once can make both statements without implying that one has precedence over the other.

heavyset_go 6y ago
How many people have these non-protestors killed? Are you talking about police or what you'd describe as rioters?
- ravenstine 6y ago
  https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/866022166/protests-spread-nationwide-on-fourth-night-after-minneapolis-death-of-george-flo https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/866022166/protests-spread-nat... https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Police-Davenport-officer-shot-2-killings-15307948.php https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Police-Davenport-officer... https://www.foxnews.com/us/federal-law-enforcement-officer-killed-in-oakland-protest-identified https://www.foxnews.com/us/federal-law-enforcement-officer-k... https://www.foxnews.com/us/kentucky-man-killed-by-cops-who-didnt-have-body-cams-on-was-friend-to-local-police-fed-them-for-free https://www.foxnews.com/us/kentucky-man-killed-by-cops-who-d... https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/article/Police-Retired-St-Louis-police-captain-killed-15311605.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/article/Police-Retired... https://www.ibtimes.com/george-floyd-las-vegas-protests-1-police-officer-wounded-1-armed-man-killed-two-2986628 https://www.ibtimes.com/george-floyd-las-vegas-protests-1-po... https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/top-detroit-news-most-arrested-at-protests-were-from-suburbs-police-say-man-shot-killed-in-car/ar-BB14SNIo https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/top-detroit-news-most-arre... ---- Maybe there are more, and I think it's fortunate that the deaths don't appear to be excessively high. But I would still argue these people might not be dead or in critical condition if the rule of law wasn't out of control. I'm no fan of police, but that doesn't mean I don't think about how some kids may have lost a parent.
ViViDboarder 6y ago
> More people have been killed and had their lives destroyed as the result of non-protestors taking advantage of the protests to destroy communities. [Citation needed] I find it hard to believe that a few days of these riots has caused more damage and loss of life than generations of racial oppression and police brutality. If you’ve got a source, I’m all ears.
- ravenstine 6y ago
  > [Citation needed] If you had simply asked me to share what I know, I would have given you some links. But I have a distaste for the "[Citation Needed]" meme because it's pompous, so I suggest you do some basic research yourself. If you can do 2nd grade arithmetic, you can figure out that 2 or more deaths is greater than 1 death. If you've even watched a minute of TV in the last 5 days, I shouldn't have to argue whether more people's lives have been destroyed than if the riots didn't happen at all. > I find it hard to believe that a few days of these riots has caused more damage and loss of life than generations of racial oppression and police brutality. That's not even close to what I said.
  - ViViDboarder 6y ago
    > If you had simply asked me to share what I know, I would have given you some links. But I have a distaste for the "[Citation Needed]" meme because it's pompous, Totally fair. That wasn’t very conservative. I’m sorry. > That's not even close to what I said. Could you clarify what you were saying? I directly quoted you, but I’ll admit your sentence isn’t clear. It says “More” but doesn’t indicate “more than what?”, so I assumed you meant the oppression that rioters are responding to. Maybe that’s not the case.

sanarothe 6y ago

Yes realistically it took a couple hundred residents about an hour to clean up La Mesa after the riot stopped. We lost a couple banks and a pizza hut. But its quite tenable. No one will mourn for the buildings or police cruisers.

rhino369 6y ago

There is no reason why it can't be "black people being killed by cops like this MUST stop" and "the rioting and looting MUST stop." Buried in your reasoning is the idea that the rioting and looting is helping reducing black deaths by cops. I see no reason to believe that. First, its directly putting people into violent conflict with police. So additional black people have been killed by police caused by the rioting. Second, innocent people are getting killed by the rioting. Third, there are people who would support police reform but are also terrified of looters and rioters. The riots are giving me a look at what my city looks like without police control, and it is scary. I know that police v. lawlessness is a false dichotomy and I reject that sort of thinking. There was a consensus that what happened to George Floyd was an atrocity. Even racists thought so. A huge peaceful protest would have raised awareness. Violence lost that consensus.

golemiprague 6y ago
I always thought the police in America is too violent comparing to other places but this is a race war, not a demonstration against police violence and if anything it shows me why the police is so violent there. If it was a demonstration against police violence it would have happened also when they kill white people because there are much more unjustified cases like that. I think the reason for police violence in the US are black people, they simply kill each other too much and from what I see act completely irrationally and with indiscriminate violence towards innocent people. No wonder the police is all the time on edge there and other races suffer because the police policies are created with black communities behaviour in mind, then they apply it also to peaceful people outside and inside the black community. I can't believe in all of this discussion nobody mention the way African Americans in the US behave, as if the police works in a vacuum and as if slavery that was abolished years ago is an excuse for what's going on there. I think people are too afraid to say what's on their mind because they will be called racist but deep inside that's what people think otherwise how comes half of the country voted for Trump but I don't see anybody here say what half of the country thinks?
standardUser 6y ago
Rioting and looting don't generally kill people. Cops do kill people, time and time again, and they usually get away with it. That's why it is absurd to equate the two. "There was a consensus that what happened to George Floyd was an atrocity." Who cares? Thinking something is an atrocity accomplished precisely jack shit. Peaceful protests get ignored or mocked. Police forces continue to get more militarized. Far right politicians, like the president, encourage violence from their bully pulpit. At a certain point, people need to respond. To not respond is to encourage those who seek to abuse power.

chillwaves 6y ago

Seriously. It's really telling how a few people rioting = all protesters bad! But you see cops being abusive and "It's just a few bad apples!" Anything to quell the cognitive dissonance.

oh_sigh 6y ago

I'd imagine the general public wants both to stop. It's not a choice to make for one or the other.