9 ms·

I had been heartened by the right's recent upswing in fierce support for the first amendment, but unfortunately I've seen little of that support during the prot

I had been heartened by the right's recent upswing in fierce support for the first amendment, but unfortunately I've seen little of that support during the protests as freedom of assembly and freedom of the press have been attacked. For example Rand Paul has not tweeted in a week. Sadly, as always, these kind of principled arguments, on both sides, are a sham to advance whatever the partisan battle of the week is.

Loughla 6y ago
I honestly wish there was anyone in Washington who seemed willing or able to lead in a bipartisan manner. Someone who didn't rely on the partisan firestorm of the week to get support. It's all very disheartening, and hard to explain to my children.
- acid__ 6y ago
  Agreed, but I think it’s perhaps just an unavoidable outcome of human nature. (Apologies for the pessimism.) It’s my view that humans are most moved by emotion, and the easiest way to produce emotion as a politician is to play up a charged partisan issue. Would love to hear alternative takes or solutions if anyone has them.
- lghh 6y ago
  Justin Amash might be someone to look for.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Prisoner's dilemma. Bipartisanship is "cooperate", divisiveness is "defect". Cooperating with a defector results in losing badly. The right have worked this out and are playing "defect" continuously. And currently "winning". We have to change the payoff matrix.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    The name for this is “asymmetric polarization”. The right polarized and stopped cooperating earlier and more aggressively.
- dlp211 6y ago
  What does "lead in a bipartisan manner" even mean? In what era of this country did anyone lead in a "bipartisan manner"?
  - rabidrat 6y ago
    Obama did a pretty damn good job.
- agildehaus 6y ago
  When you have one side that has completely lost touch with reality, being bipartisan is a bad idea.
- mythrwy 6y ago
  I wish we could ban political parties (pipe dream I know). What positive are they doing for us at this juncture?
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    The first step is encouraging local governments to switch away from first-past-the-post voting, which has been mathematically demonstrated to lead to polarization between two parties that are mostly indistinguishable outside of the core polar issues.
theplague42 6y ago
That's because their support was always fake. It's about non-existent "censorship" of conservatives, nothing more.
- xenospn 6y ago
  They seem to always go silent when they must take an actual stand. Sadly, this looks like a successful strategy.
- dionidium 6y ago
  This is, of course, ridiculous. There are serious people who genuinely care about that issue. More generally, there is always nearby the temptation to definitionally exclude one's political opponents from serious discussion by the lazy insinuation that they don't really believe what they say they believe, that their side is more opportunistic and cynical than yours, and that, therefore, what work even needs to be done to argue the point? After all, there are only two staked-out positions: those who agree with me already and those who are lying about their motives! Try to resist this. It goes nowhere. It leads to nothing. And I assure you that, whatever the issue, there really are people who see it differently than you. I know that can be hard to accept, but it's almost always true.
  - 3131s 6y ago
    Sure, don't assume malice with regular people, but US politicians are completely disingenuous and they know exactly what they're doing. It is rare for them to "really believe what they say they believe", because saying anything true at all pretty quickly starts to reveal their financial interests.
Press2forEN 6y ago
The riots today are driven by the far left and their typical rejection of capitalism and tradition. I don't see the right supporting their message of social authoritarianism any time soon.
- xenospn 6y ago
  This is verifiably false.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Don't just claim it. Supply the verification.
    - apazzolini 6y ago
      The onus to supply verification is on the person making the claim. Hitchen's razor: What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
      - leetcrew 6y ago
        in general yes, but if someone says something is "verifiably false", you might expect them to at least provide some clues as to how that could be verified.
    - wetmore 6y ago
      Why don't you ask the same thing of the person who made the original claim?
      - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
        That's fair. Still, "nuh uh" is not an effective rebuttal. Asking for evidence is better than "you're wrong" or "you're a liar". "Here's evidence that you're wrong" is even stronger.
prudhvis 6y ago
Aren't most of these happening in majority left wing states and cities run by the left. AFAIK they are still report the Mayors of the cities. Let's not make this a Right vs Left thing any more. The country is already divided as it is, we don't need further division in this country.
- theplague42 6y ago
  Sure, but the president is a Republican who is relishing the opportunity to violently put down protests.
- bosswipe 6y ago
  If the first amendment violations are being done by left wing politicians then it should be even easier for the right to attack them, but instead they're silent or encouraging tougher violations.
- klyrs 6y ago
  Big cities tend to vote democrat, but there are protests in all 50 states.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ashtonkem 6y ago
That renewed interest in free speech was never genuine. At the same time they were decrying Twitter “censorship” (mostly on Twitter, I will add), they were busy trying to force laws that would forbid people boycotting Israel from ever getting a government contract. The same people who were praising protest against lock downs are now saying that being out past curfew justifies being shot with a rubber baton. It was all partisan.
- youeseh 6y ago
  Indeed. No one likes it when people disagree with them. And this is precisely why the freedom of speech is so important and has thankfully stood its tests in court. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech
rpiguy 6y ago
Because rioting isn’t free speech. All conservatives support peaceable assembly and protest. They also fiercely believe in property rights as inherently tied to the concept of liberty. It is right in the Declaration of Independence. No conservative worth his or her salt will defend theft, property destruction, etc.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  rioting is indeed not free speech, but surely attacking the press, one of the fundamental institutions in any democracy, is a violation of free speech. And not only have the people in question not spoken up in defense of the press, they've actually routinely declare them the enemy of the people.
  - rpiguy 6y ago
    Fully Agree. The press should not be attacked. There is no excuse for it.
    - Drybones 6y ago
      When everyone has a camera, social media audiences, live streams, YouTube channel, websites, and blogs/micro-blogging, what is the definition of Press and why do Press get to ignore restrictions and closed off areas? Are the only Press allowed to be Press those that are part of a large national news network? Is Alex Jones Press if he shows up to these with a guy with a camera and enters areas civilians are not allowed to be in?
- mcguire 6y ago
  Anybody remember the Clinton administration, when the popular cry was "Charlton Heston is my president!" and "The purpose of the Right to Bear Arms isn't for hunting, it is so that politicians fear the people!" Yeah, I don't either. Yes, rioting isn't free speech. Unfortunately, nothing short of rioting seems to work---the people in question are poor and already at the bottom of the social pile, so their options seem limited.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tomjakubowski 6y ago
To his credit Justin Amash has been very active in speaking out against government and police actions the past week or so.
panny 6y ago
>I had been heartened by the right's recent upswing in fierce support for the first amendment, but unfortunately I've seen little of that support during the protests You do see a difference in the protests, right? The protests against lockdowns didn't include looting, arson, rape, murder, and multiple murdered police. Here, have a small sample, Black pawn shop employee murdered by looters for TVs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhG0v9pDycM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhG0v9pDycM "You said black lives matter.. look what you did to my store" https://mobile.twitter.com/Mus1yMustafa/status/1267874483840442368 https://mobile.twitter.com/Mus1yMustafa/status/1267874483840... Destroying store and beating unarmed woman and her husband https://streamable.com/rvrwil https://streamable.com/rvrwil Restaurant manager beaten and stomped for trying to defend his workplace https://streamable.com/ila4dh https://streamable.com/ila4dh Stopping, beating and stomping a truck driver while protesters yell to kill him https://streamable.com/8zk9dq https://streamable.com/8zk9dq Protesters attack a media member and then pummel him https://streamable.com/p4i3jb https://streamable.com/p4i3jb Police officer beaten on the streets https://streamable.com/je4ki5 https://streamable.com/je4ki5 Car runs over a cop https://streamable.com/q4nat7 https://streamable.com/q4nat7 Protesters set homeless man’s belongings on fire https://streamable.com/sdjvfa https://streamable.com/sdjvfa Throwing fireworks at the cops https://streamable.com/7sv4a9 https://streamable.com/7sv4a9 Chasing and beating guy with red had https://streamable.com/rcsmi0 https://streamable.com/rcsmi0 I can keep going. It is utterly dispicable. There's a long long list of videos with these "peaceful protestors" in action. Everyone has a camera, and all of this is available for you to see, if you only choose to see it.
- pbourke 6y ago
  > Protesters set homeless man’s belongings on fire This was staged by infowars. I cannot be arsed to look at all of your videos. The right wing lockdown protests had a strong smell of AstroTurf about them: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/us/politics/coronavirus-protests-trump.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/us/politics/coronavirus-p...
  - panny 6y ago
    >I cannot be arsed to look at all your videos Oh well, I guess black lives don't actually matter to you then, because the video I lead with is a real black man who really died. https://fox6now.com/2020/06/02/police-retired-st-louis-police-captain-killed-by-pawn-shop-burglars-amid-unrest/ https://fox6now.com/2020/06/02/police-retired-st-louis-polic...

Loughla 6y ago

I honestly wish there was anyone in Washington who seemed willing or able to lead in a bipartisan manner. Someone who didn't rely on the partisan firestorm of the week to get support. It's all very disheartening, and hard to explain to my children.

acid__ 6y ago
Agreed, but I think it’s perhaps just an unavoidable outcome of human nature. (Apologies for the pessimism.) It’s my view that humans are most moved by emotion, and the easiest way to produce emotion as a politician is to play up a charged partisan issue. Would love to hear alternative takes or solutions if anyone has them.
lghh 6y ago
Justin Amash might be someone to look for.
pjc50 6y ago
Prisoner's dilemma. Bipartisanship is "cooperate", divisiveness is "defect". Cooperating with a defector results in losing badly. The right have worked this out and are playing "defect" continuously. And currently "winning". We have to change the payoff matrix.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  The name for this is “asymmetric polarization”. The right polarized and stopped cooperating earlier and more aggressively.
dlp211 6y ago
What does "lead in a bipartisan manner" even mean? In what era of this country did anyone lead in a "bipartisan manner"?
- rabidrat 6y ago
  Obama did a pretty damn good job.
agildehaus 6y ago
When you have one side that has completely lost touch with reality, being bipartisan is a bad idea.
mythrwy 6y ago
I wish we could ban political parties (pipe dream I know). What positive are they doing for us at this juncture?
- nitrogen 6y ago
  The first step is encouraging local governments to switch away from first-past-the-post voting, which has been mathematically demonstrated to lead to polarization between two parties that are mostly indistinguishable outside of the core polar issues.

theplague42 6y ago

That's because their support was always fake. It's about non-existent "censorship" of conservatives, nothing more.

xenospn 6y ago
They seem to always go silent when they must take an actual stand. Sadly, this looks like a successful strategy.
dionidium 6y ago
This is, of course, ridiculous. There are serious people who genuinely care about that issue. More generally, there is always nearby the temptation to definitionally exclude one's political opponents from serious discussion by the lazy insinuation that they don't really believe what they say they believe, that their side is more opportunistic and cynical than yours, and that, therefore, what work even needs to be done to argue the point? After all, there are only two staked-out positions: those who agree with me already and those who are lying about their motives! Try to resist this. It goes nowhere. It leads to nothing. And I assure you that, whatever the issue, there really are people who see it differently than you. I know that can be hard to accept, but it's almost always true.
- 3131s 6y ago
  Sure, don't assume malice with regular people, but US politicians are completely disingenuous and they know exactly what they're doing. It is rare for them to "really believe what they say they believe", because saying anything true at all pretty quickly starts to reveal their financial interests.

Press2forEN 6y ago

The riots today are driven by the far left and their typical rejection of capitalism and tradition. I don't see the right supporting their message of social authoritarianism any time soon.

xenospn 6y ago
This is verifiably false.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Don't just claim it. Supply the verification.
  - apazzolini 6y ago
    The onus to supply verification is on the person making the claim. Hitchen's razor: What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
    - leetcrew 6y ago
      in general yes, but if someone says something is "verifiably false", you might expect them to at least provide some clues as to how that could be verified.
  - wetmore 6y ago
    Why don't you ask the same thing of the person who made the original claim?
    - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
      That's fair. Still, "nuh uh" is not an effective rebuttal. Asking for evidence is better than "you're wrong" or "you're a liar". "Here's evidence that you're wrong" is even stronger.

prudhvis 6y ago

Aren't most of these happening in majority left wing states and cities run by the left. AFAIK they are still report the Mayors of the cities. Let's not make this a Right vs Left thing any more. The country is already divided as it is, we don't need further division in this country.

theplague42 6y ago
Sure, but the president is a Republican who is relishing the opportunity to violently put down protests.
bosswipe 6y ago
If the first amendment violations are being done by left wing politicians then it should be even easier for the right to attack them, but instead they're silent or encouraging tougher violations.
klyrs 6y ago
Big cities tend to vote democrat, but there are protests in all 50 states.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ashtonkem 6y ago

That renewed interest in free speech was never genuine. At the same time they were decrying Twitter “censorship” (mostly on Twitter, I will add), they were busy trying to force laws that would forbid people boycotting Israel from ever getting a government contract. The same people who were praising protest against lock downs are now saying that being out past curfew justifies being shot with a rubber baton. It was all partisan.

youeseh 6y ago
Indeed. No one likes it when people disagree with them. And this is precisely why the freedom of speech is so important and has thankfully stood its tests in court. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech

rpiguy 6y ago

Because rioting isn’t free speech. All conservatives support peaceable assembly and protest. They also fiercely believe in property rights as inherently tied to the concept of liberty. It is right in the Declaration of Independence. No conservative worth his or her salt will defend theft, property destruction, etc.

Barrin92 6y ago
rioting is indeed not free speech, but surely attacking the press, one of the fundamental institutions in any democracy, is a violation of free speech. And not only have the people in question not spoken up in defense of the press, they've actually routinely declare them the enemy of the people.
- rpiguy 6y ago
  Fully Agree. The press should not be attacked. There is no excuse for it.
  - Drybones 6y ago
    When everyone has a camera, social media audiences, live streams, YouTube channel, websites, and blogs/micro-blogging, what is the definition of Press and why do Press get to ignore restrictions and closed off areas? Are the only Press allowed to be Press those that are part of a large national news network? Is Alex Jones Press if he shows up to these with a guy with a camera and enters areas civilians are not allowed to be in?
mcguire 6y ago
Anybody remember the Clinton administration, when the popular cry was "Charlton Heston is my president!" and "The purpose of the Right to Bear Arms isn't for hunting, it is so that politicians fear the people!" Yeah, I don't either. Yes, rioting isn't free speech. Unfortunately, nothing short of rioting seems to work---the people in question are poor and already at the bottom of the social pile, so their options seem limited.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

tomjakubowski 6y ago

To his credit Justin Amash has been very active in speaking out against government and police actions the past week or so.

panny 6y ago

>I had been heartened by the right's recent upswing in fierce support for the first amendment, but unfortunately I've seen little of that support during the protests You do see a difference in the protests, right? The protests against lockdowns didn't include looting, arson, rape, murder, and multiple murdered police. Here, have a small sample, Black pawn shop employee murdered by looters for TVs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhG0v9pDycM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhG0v9pDycM "You said black lives matter.. look what you did to my store" https://mobile.twitter.com/Mus1yMustafa/status/1267874483840442368 https://mobile.twitter.com/Mus1yMustafa/status/1267874483840... Destroying store and beating unarmed woman and her husband https://streamable.com/rvrwil https://streamable.com/rvrwil Restaurant manager beaten and stomped for trying to defend his workplace https://streamable.com/ila4dh https://streamable.com/ila4dh Stopping, beating and stomping a truck driver while protesters yell to kill him https://streamable.com/8zk9dq https://streamable.com/8zk9dq Protesters attack a media member and then pummel him https://streamable.com/p4i3jb https://streamable.com/p4i3jb Police officer beaten on the streets https://streamable.com/je4ki5 https://streamable.com/je4ki5 Car runs over a cop https://streamable.com/q4nat7 https://streamable.com/q4nat7 Protesters set homeless man’s belongings on fire https://streamable.com/sdjvfa https://streamable.com/sdjvfa Throwing fireworks at the cops https://streamable.com/7sv4a9 https://streamable.com/7sv4a9 Chasing and beating guy with red had https://streamable.com/rcsmi0 https://streamable.com/rcsmi0 I can keep going. It is utterly dispicable. There's a long long list of videos with these "peaceful protestors" in action. Everyone has a camera, and all of this is available for you to see, if you only choose to see it.

pbourke 6y ago
> Protesters set homeless man’s belongings on fire This was staged by infowars. I cannot be arsed to look at all of your videos. The right wing lockdown protests had a strong smell of AstroTurf about them: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/us/politics/coronavirus-protests-trump.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/us/politics/coronavirus-p...
- panny 6y ago
  >I cannot be arsed to look at all your videos Oh well, I guess black lives don't actually matter to you then, because the video I lead with is a real black man who really died. https://fox6now.com/2020/06/02/police-retired-st-louis-police-captain-killed-by-pawn-shop-burglars-amid-unrest/ https://fox6now.com/2020/06/02/police-retired-st-louis-polic...