6 ms·

I love Ben Thompson's writing and I like how he accurately connects the history of institutional racism to the events of today. I have seen a few articles of th

by dmode 6y ago

I love Ben Thompson's writing and I like how he accurately connects the history of institutional racism to the events of today. I have seen a few articles of this kind, and it seems like in today's America vast majority of people (except a few Trump holdouts) have acknowledged that the historical arc of slavery to segregation to white flight to real estate discrimination has led to where we are. However, what I don't hear is radical solution to this problem. Even in Obama's medium essay, the solution is deep police and criminal justice reform. Which, while important, is incremental. What we need here is a step change to course correct 400 years of history. And incremental changes do not cut it. Here are some step change suggestions 1)Trillions of dollars of reparations 2) A generous UBI 3) Free healthcare 4) Trillions of investment in schools in poorer neighborhoods 5) A dramatic rise in minimum wage In pre-COVID world, I would accept a reasonable pushback against this suggestion was "deficit" "debt" etc. But COVID has exposed these pushbacks was hypocritical (puts a stark spotlight on the hypocritical Tea Party movement). We printed trillions of dollars overnight to save small and big businesses, and employees. Why can't we move at that scale ? If we can suddenly print that much money, what is stopping us from massive investments in our most disadvantaged communities to undo 400 years of history ?

kennxfl 6y ago
Covid had definitely exposed flaws in pure free market capitalism. We are modern human beings who can control Darwinism for the sake of greater good if need be.
disease 6y ago
Economic parity would go a long way towards solving these problems, I don't think they can happen before white racial resentment is solved. It's interesting that so many working class whites are so willing to vote against their own economic self interest - particular where the possibility of raising the levels of working class blacks is concerned. Last Place Aversion is a very real thing it seems.
- dmode 6y ago
  Can you expand a little bit on the white racial resentment and what you mean by it ?
  - __s 6y ago
    He's referring to white trash voting republican against their self interest https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/12/31/trump-white-working-class-history-216200 https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/12/31/trump-whi... Or, with humor, from Dave Chappelle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH-wCe5oAv8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH-wCe5oAv8
    - Fartag 6y ago
      news.ycombinator.com is another amazing echo chamber. Racism going one way, one-sided political views, forum sliding, dissenting posts flagged, down moderated, censored from view. One more Leftwing echo chamber to radicalize, brainwash and mislead. Training techno Marxists to destroy their own critical thinking, side always politically left, ridicule and embrace censorship of their enemies, and to bury awareness that their hungry, deathful ideology has historically killed 100 ~ 200+ million of their own people.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - metalliqaz 6y ago
        heh, something set this guy off.... I wonder what it could be?
    - free_rms 6y ago
      Maybe they just vote for the party that doesn't call them white trash?
      - __s 6y ago
        This might surprise you but I don't vote democrat
- free_rms 6y ago
  Do you think any of those people actually think to themselves "I'm going to vote against my economic self-interest because of Last Place Aversion"?
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Maybe they don’t say that but how many farmers who voted for Trump because of his platform about deporting “illegals” are now complaining that they can’t find anyone to work their farms because Americans won’t work the fields at any price? And they are going to vote for him again? How many “good Christians” support him even after the recording came out about him “grabbing a woman by the p%%%%”?
    - free_rms 6y ago
      Farmers are rich, though, and they're doing fine for labor. The trade war hit them worse by tanking pork prices. For working class people, neoliberal economics have done nothing for them. Plants in town have closed and they don't see any investment in their community from their tax dollars. If neither party is going to look out for you, it's perfectly rational to sigh and pick the one that at least doesn't villainize you as some sort of oppressor. If the democrats want to win back the white union vote, they need to actually offer something besides "vote for us or you're racist". I guess there's always 2024.
- jtr1 6y ago
  I agree that this has to be part of the solution. There are some activists who have called for the US to go through a national truth and reconciliation proceedings to establish a common narrative.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Economic Parity doesn’t have anything to do with police mistreatment and racial profiling. My family lives in the most affluent part of our metro area, my son grew up in the burbs all of his life, as an experienced software engineer by definition we have higher than the median income for our area, and people still thought we were up to something when we walked through our house as it was being built while other couples freely walked in and out of unsold homes. Last year, I was outside talking to our (White) yard guy. His truck with the name of his lawn service was parked out front. He was dressed in beat up jeans, dusty, and holding the lawn mower while I had just come from work - in slacks and button down shirt. A neighbor walked over to us and asked him how long has he been living here while completely ignoring me. He looked like he was going to say something and I quietly nudged for him not to. I politely said I would see them later and walked into the house. She was embarrassed - point made. When she left, I walked back outside with a bottle of water for him and we started back talking. I told him I just walked into the house to make a point and we both laughed.
zchrykng 6y ago
Please explain why I, a tax paying citizen who isn't a racist and hasn't discriminated against anyone, should have my money taken away at the point of a gun to fund all these programs. Also all the government spending for COVID was also misguided. Not the federal government's role and our debt is at dangerous levels.
- huac 6y ago
  > Also all the government spending for COVID was also misguided. Not the federal government's role and our debt is at dangerous levels. What is the role of the federal government, if not "to provide basic services to its citizens in times of extraordinary need"? In the face of a generational pandemic, from which nobody is unaffected, why should the government throw up its hands and not spend? I recognize that that is something of an ideological statement, and we're not going to get anywhere with non-falsifiable statements. So let's think of it a different way: you say that "debt is at dangerous levels" - how would you quantify danger? US Treasury yields, how we "finance" debt, are at all-time lows - which means that private buyers are willing to pay higher prices than ever for the safety of Treasury bonds. There is absolutely no quantitative evidence that more US government debt is dangerous; in fact, the evidence points squarely towards investors demanding more debt issuance, and thus government spending, given the extremely low rates.
  - zchrykng 6y ago
    Federal government's purpose is international relations, trade, and defense. Everything should be handled by the states, counties, and towns. Part of what makes federal debt dangerous is the fact that we can't possibly run the country without issuing large amounts of debt at this point. If debt continues to grow at the rates that is has been, eventually tax revenue won't even cover the interest on said debt. At some point the US will have to be issuing debt to pay off interest on other debt, assuming we aren't there now - haven't checked in a while. Even assuming that investors never realize how much of a house of cards this is, this continual increase in the money supply will eventually lead to a large amount of inflation, which will devalue the currency, increasing debt required, which feeds back into the loop. Currently, we don't have a major problem manifesting, but judging from pretty much every other country that has run massive debt for an extended period, it is just a matter of time.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jjtheblunt 6y ago
Would that imply taxation (to fund such) on recent immigrants from Asia and Europe and Africa, whose ancestors were not involved in the horrors of slavery?
- sharkjacobs 6y ago
  It's not about personal responsibility, or ancestral responsibility. Immigrants in the United States chose to become part of that country, with all the benefits, privileges, and responsibilities that entails. edit: To make an analogy, if you move into a condo, and its roof needs to be replaced the next year, it's not your fault that the building's reserve fund can't cover the cost, but that doesn't exempt you from paying the special levy.
  - jimmydddd 6y ago
    Agreed. But if I just moved in yesterday, I wouldn't be happy if other tenants cursed me out and blamed me personally for the fact that the reserve fund hadn't been funded for the last twenty years.
- dmode 6y ago
  I don't see why not ? I also don't think we may not need Nordic country level taxation. Since the US treasury can print unlimited money and still see extremely low yields, why even raise taxes ?
twunde 6y ago
Tangent: For anyone who wants to learn more about the history of instutional racism in the US, in particular the Home Owners’ Loan Corporation, The Color of Law (https://www.amazon.com/Color-Law-Forgotten-Government-Segregated/dp/1631492853 https://www.amazon.com/Color-Law-Forgotten-Government-Segreg...) goes into detail about the history of red lining and how it was GOVERNMENT-supported. For those bothered by the curfews imposed across the US, I'd also recommend Sundown Towns (https://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-American/dp/0743294483 https://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-Americ...), which discusses how many metropolitan areas had unofficial but very much enforced curfews for minorities.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
sunshinerag 6y ago
Where do the trillions come from?

by dmode 6y ago

kennxfl 6y ago

Covid had definitely exposed flaws in pure free market capitalism. We are modern human beings who can control Darwinism for the sake of greater good if need be.

disease 6y ago

Economic parity would go a long way towards solving these problems, I don't think they can happen before white racial resentment is solved. It's interesting that so many working class whites are so willing to vote against their own economic self interest - particular where the possibility of raising the levels of working class blacks is concerned. Last Place Aversion is a very real thing it seems.

dmode 6y ago
Can you expand a little bit on the white racial resentment and what you mean by it ?
- __s 6y ago
  He's referring to white trash voting republican against their self interest https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/12/31/trump-white-working-class-history-216200 https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/12/31/trump-whi... Or, with humor, from Dave Chappelle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH-wCe5oAv8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH-wCe5oAv8
  - Fartag 6y ago
    news.ycombinator.com is another amazing echo chamber. Racism going one way, one-sided political views, forum sliding, dissenting posts flagged, down moderated, censored from view. One more Leftwing echo chamber to radicalize, brainwash and mislead. Training techno Marxists to destroy their own critical thinking, side always politically left, ridicule and embrace censorship of their enemies, and to bury awareness that their hungry, deathful ideology has historically killed 100 ~ 200+ million of their own people.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - metalliqaz 6y ago
      heh, something set this guy off.... I wonder what it could be?
  - free_rms 6y ago
    Maybe they just vote for the party that doesn't call them white trash?
    - __s 6y ago
      This might surprise you but I don't vote democrat
free_rms 6y ago
Do you think any of those people actually think to themselves "I'm going to vote against my economic self-interest because of Last Place Aversion"?
- scarface74 6y ago
  Maybe they don’t say that but how many farmers who voted for Trump because of his platform about deporting “illegals” are now complaining that they can’t find anyone to work their farms because Americans won’t work the fields at any price? And they are going to vote for him again? How many “good Christians” support him even after the recording came out about him “grabbing a woman by the p%%%%”?
  - free_rms 6y ago
    Farmers are rich, though, and they're doing fine for labor. The trade war hit them worse by tanking pork prices. For working class people, neoliberal economics have done nothing for them. Plants in town have closed and they don't see any investment in their community from their tax dollars. If neither party is going to look out for you, it's perfectly rational to sigh and pick the one that at least doesn't villainize you as some sort of oppressor. If the democrats want to win back the white union vote, they need to actually offer something besides "vote for us or you're racist". I guess there's always 2024.
jtr1 6y ago
I agree that this has to be part of the solution. There are some activists who have called for the US to go through a national truth and reconciliation proceedings to establish a common narrative.
scarface74 6y ago
Economic Parity doesn’t have anything to do with police mistreatment and racial profiling. My family lives in the most affluent part of our metro area, my son grew up in the burbs all of his life, as an experienced software engineer by definition we have higher than the median income for our area, and people still thought we were up to something when we walked through our house as it was being built while other couples freely walked in and out of unsold homes. Last year, I was outside talking to our (White) yard guy. His truck with the name of his lawn service was parked out front. He was dressed in beat up jeans, dusty, and holding the lawn mower while I had just come from work - in slacks and button down shirt. A neighbor walked over to us and asked him how long has he been living here while completely ignoring me. He looked like he was going to say something and I quietly nudged for him not to. I politely said I would see them later and walked into the house. She was embarrassed - point made. When she left, I walked back outside with a bottle of water for him and we started back talking. I told him I just walked into the house to make a point and we both laughed.

zchrykng 6y ago

Please explain why I, a tax paying citizen who isn't a racist and hasn't discriminated against anyone, should have my money taken away at the point of a gun to fund all these programs. Also all the government spending for COVID was also misguided. Not the federal government's role and our debt is at dangerous levels.

huac 6y ago
> Also all the government spending for COVID was also misguided. Not the federal government's role and our debt is at dangerous levels. What is the role of the federal government, if not "to provide basic services to its citizens in times of extraordinary need"? In the face of a generational pandemic, from which nobody is unaffected, why should the government throw up its hands and not spend? I recognize that that is something of an ideological statement, and we're not going to get anywhere with non-falsifiable statements. So let's think of it a different way: you say that "debt is at dangerous levels" - how would you quantify danger? US Treasury yields, how we "finance" debt, are at all-time lows - which means that private buyers are willing to pay higher prices than ever for the safety of Treasury bonds. There is absolutely no quantitative evidence that more US government debt is dangerous; in fact, the evidence points squarely towards investors demanding more debt issuance, and thus government spending, given the extremely low rates.
- zchrykng 6y ago
  Federal government's purpose is international relations, trade, and defense. Everything should be handled by the states, counties, and towns. Part of what makes federal debt dangerous is the fact that we can't possibly run the country without issuing large amounts of debt at this point. If debt continues to grow at the rates that is has been, eventually tax revenue won't even cover the interest on said debt. At some point the US will have to be issuing debt to pay off interest on other debt, assuming we aren't there now - haven't checked in a while. Even assuming that investors never realize how much of a house of cards this is, this continual increase in the money supply will eventually lead to a large amount of inflation, which will devalue the currency, increasing debt required, which feeds back into the loop. Currently, we don't have a major problem manifesting, but judging from pretty much every other country that has run massive debt for an extended period, it is just a matter of time.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

jjtheblunt 6y ago

Would that imply taxation (to fund such) on recent immigrants from Asia and Europe and Africa, whose ancestors were not involved in the horrors of slavery?

sharkjacobs 6y ago
It's not about personal responsibility, or ancestral responsibility. Immigrants in the United States chose to become part of that country, with all the benefits, privileges, and responsibilities that entails. edit: To make an analogy, if you move into a condo, and its roof needs to be replaced the next year, it's not your fault that the building's reserve fund can't cover the cost, but that doesn't exempt you from paying the special levy.
- jimmydddd 6y ago
  Agreed. But if I just moved in yesterday, I wouldn't be happy if other tenants cursed me out and blamed me personally for the fact that the reserve fund hadn't been funded for the last twenty years.
dmode 6y ago
I don't see why not ? I also don't think we may not need Nordic country level taxation. Since the US treasury can print unlimited money and still see extremely low yields, why even raise taxes ?

twunde 6y ago

Tangent: For anyone who wants to learn more about the history of instutional racism in the US, in particular the Home Owners’ Loan Corporation, The Color of Law (https://www.amazon.com/Color-Law-Forgotten-Government-Segregated/dp/1631492853 https://www.amazon.com/Color-Law-Forgotten-Government-Segreg...) goes into detail about the history of red lining and how it was GOVERNMENT-supported. For those bothered by the curfews imposed across the US, I'd also recommend Sundown Towns (https://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-American/dp/0743294483 https://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-Americ...), which discusses how many metropolitan areas had unofficial but very much enforced curfews for minorities.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

sunshinerag 6y ago

Where do the trillions come from?