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(I assume this is posted because of the preamble on legal realism and George Floyd, which I'm addressing.) I just finished _Team of Rivals_, an excellent histo

by mshron 6y ago

(I assume this is posted because of the preamble on legal realism and George Floyd, which I'm addressing.) I just finished _Team of Rivals_, an excellent history of Lincoln and the Civil War. Specifically, the political and administrative side of the war, with a lot less focus on the military aspects. Something that really popped out at me from the book is how often public opinion is in a feedback loop with the law. Both the formal bits and the realist bits. I think Levine is right when he says that the law is, more-or-less, what the people with tear gas do. But what the people with tear gas can get away with is partly determined by where public opinion is. And even if the laws about restricting police and military actions are often worthless, other laws matter. Like budgets, and procurement rules. Police can't fire tear gas if they can't buy it. There's no shortcut, but not all is hopeless. Don't give up.

sillysaurusx 6y ago
But what the people with tear gas can get away with is partly determined by where public opinion is. And even if the laws about restricting police and military actions are often worthless, other laws matter. Like budgets, and procurement rules. Police can't fire tear gas if they can't buy it. The logic here goes something like: The citizens are unhappy -> The unhappiness translates into different politicians -> Those politicians will de-fund what made the citizens unhappy. That logic only works if you take politicians at their word. But politics is a sticky thing. It seems a game of musical chairs, where the last one sitting is voted out, but the rest are sitting pretty. And there are so many chairs to fill. To be blunt: We don't have power. And the protests are merely a reflection of that fact. Why would the politicians do anything but tell us what we want to hear, and then continue to do the same things? There's no benefit, political or otherwise, in giving us what we want. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs is a nice refresher on some of the issues.
- bluGill 6y ago
  Because you vote them out. The nra is powerful because they have voted people out. The truth is most people don't really care about what they say they care about, so politicians can get away with not doing as they say. They are careful to do what they say when they have reason to believe voters actually care. This week, without riots we cn get police reform through because they are afraid if they don't will remember and vote them out. Next week if we forget they won't. There is a reasonable conspiracy theory that the riots are sponsored by those who want police reforms to fail, but making the police the good guys (better than the increasing mob riot) laws won't pass. Might be unfounded, but it is reasonable.
- mshron 6y ago
  That's one causal path, but I don't think it's the only one. Crises can also lead to pressure on politicians, who pass laws that have an impact even after the crisis is over, sometimes even good ones. The PATRIOT Act isn't the only bill quickly passed out of fear. Consider the 1968 Fair Housing Act, which ended redlining, and made it through partly out of fear of further rioting after MLK's assassination. That's a big deal, even if no politicians were voted out.
- tick_tock_tick 6y ago
  All the major cities that are having these issues are 1 party cities that enjoy their citizen duly re-electing them time and time and not getting anything they promised. I think the two party system at the nation level is bad but nothing compared to how all major US cities are 1 party cites. Why change anything when the status quo keeps you in power and lets you fill your pockets.

by mshron 6y ago

sillysaurusx 6y ago

But what the people with tear gas can get away with is partly determined by where public opinion is. And even if the laws about restricting police and military actions are often worthless, other laws matter. Like budgets, and procurement rules. Police can't fire tear gas if they can't buy it. The logic here goes something like: The citizens are unhappy -> The unhappiness translates into different politicians -> Those politicians will de-fund what made the citizens unhappy. That logic only works if you take politicians at their word. But politics is a sticky thing. It seems a game of musical chairs, where the last one sitting is voted out, but the rest are sitting pretty. And there are so many chairs to fill. To be blunt: We don't have power. And the protests are merely a reflection of that fact. Why would the politicians do anything but tell us what we want to hear, and then continue to do the same things? There's no benefit, political or otherwise, in giving us what we want. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs is a nice refresher on some of the issues.

bluGill 6y ago
Because you vote them out. The nra is powerful because they have voted people out. The truth is most people don't really care about what they say they care about, so politicians can get away with not doing as they say. They are careful to do what they say when they have reason to believe voters actually care. This week, without riots we cn get police reform through because they are afraid if they don't will remember and vote them out. Next week if we forget they won't. There is a reasonable conspiracy theory that the riots are sponsored by those who want police reforms to fail, but making the police the good guys (better than the increasing mob riot) laws won't pass. Might be unfounded, but it is reasonable.
mshron 6y ago
That's one causal path, but I don't think it's the only one. Crises can also lead to pressure on politicians, who pass laws that have an impact even after the crisis is over, sometimes even good ones. The PATRIOT Act isn't the only bill quickly passed out of fear. Consider the 1968 Fair Housing Act, which ended redlining, and made it through partly out of fear of further rioting after MLK's assassination. That's a big deal, even if no politicians were voted out.
tick_tock_tick 6y ago
All the major cities that are having these issues are 1 party cities that enjoy their citizen duly re-electing them time and time and not getting anything they promised. I think the two party system at the nation level is bad but nothing compared to how all major US cities are 1 party cites. Why change anything when the status quo keeps you in power and lets you fill your pockets.