6 ms·

I agree that both professions have the same sort of "service in a time of crisis" mythology surrounding them but how does the fact that the norm for the medical

I agree that both professions have the same sort of "service in a time of crisis" mythology surrounding them but how does the fact that the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage starting out with a shot as average pay after several years of service affect those myths?

rconti 6y ago
I think it's worth discussing as I also had slight misgivings about the perceived disparity you mention. I'm not sure that it's relevant, as the pay scale for LPNs/CNs/CNAs are all over the place... and overtime and retirement benefits can make law enforcement extremely lucrative careers. But I just don't have the numbers for it either way.
makoz 6y ago
Are we factoring in the vastly different requirements for each profession starting out? Seems disingenuous to compare say Doctors who go through medical school vs people who only need a high school degree and however long training takes.
Terretta 6y ago
Is "the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage" overstating things a little? Looks like NYC cops make more than NYC nurses, or it's close. From the source, starting $42K, $85K after 5 years, plus benefits: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-benefits.page https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-be... New York nursing, average pay (> 5 years) $83K, $89K in NYC. When you factor in years of medical school for the degree, medical malpractice insurance, and lack of benefits versus police pension, police are generally netting more.
- pmorici 6y ago
  In Baltimore, the minimum wage is $15 an hour (31k / yr) and the starting salary for a police trainee is advertised to be around 35k. The point isn't whether they get paid the wrong amount for the qualifications required the point is about the calculus about how much you are willing to put up with when you are getting paid $70k vs $300k. If I'm getting paid $300k and once or twice in my 40 year career I have to deal with a pandemic my thought process about how I feel about that is different than if I'm making 70k. All I'm saying is comparing doctors to cops doesn't seem particularly useful.
  - Terretta 6y ago
    This seems confused about who are on the front lines. It's mostly not the $300K year MDs just like it's mostly not the $300K police captains. That's "the 1%" (figuratively). The front lines for riots are the $35K - $85K cops and the front lines for COVID are the $35K - $85K year nurses.
maxfan8 6y ago
Sure, medical professionals get paid a lot. They also have a lot of tuitions/student loans to pay. Training and educating medical professionals is not a cheap task.
baumandm 6y ago
I believe there was a thread here previously on this topic. It varies across jurisdictions but most police officers are paid better than other salaried workers[1], which is significantly above the minimum wage[2]. [1] https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/06/in-blue-but-not-blue-collar https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/06/in-blue-but-no... [2] The effective nationwide minimum wage, (the wage that the average minimum wage worker earns), is $11.80 as of May 2019. So 40 hr/week * 52 weeks = $24,544 annually. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_Sta...)
syshum 6y ago
Where are police officers being paid Minimum Wage? In my city a 1st year officer makes about 15-20% more than the median HOUSEHOLD income for the city. (most Households are 2 income at least). That is base income not factoring in Shift Premiums, Overtime, and various other income they earn So I would love to know what city you are referring to where cops are being paid the minimum wage
- pmorici 6y ago
  No where, I said 'slightly above starting out'. For example in Baltimore where they have a $15 minimum wage (~31k /yr) the advertised starting salary for a police officer is something like $35-38k while they are in training which as far as I can tell lasts for 6-12 months that gets bumped up to ~$53k and after several years you can take some kind of test to become a supervisor where you make up to low six figures. A college degree is helpful but not strictly required. A doctor on the other hand starts out making 70k in their residency after 4 years of undergrad and 4 years of med school. Once their residency is over they can expect to make well into the six figures. Probably in the 300-400k range. COVID is a few months of increased danger that happens perhaps once in a career for which some medical professionals are even getting paid extra for. I don't necessarily think police are under paid but to say you can attract people because of the public service aspect of the job and ignore the vast pay difference seems to ignore the obvious difference.
  - syshum 6y ago
    So are you advocating we charge police officers $100-300K for their training as well? They get paid a reasonable salary to be trained in a job that will provide them a nice income for the rest of their life. Having a lower salary while in training is not unheard of in any field, I am not sure why you believe those numbers are unacceptable. Further Baltimore shows why a national $15 min wage is untenable, as all that does is make more jobs "minimum wage jobs" because taking the min wage from $8 to $15 does not magically mean all the jobs that paid $15 now pay $22, that is not how economics work
    - pmorici 6y ago
meowsnow 6y ago
The San Jose cop that caught controversy was found by public records to be getting paid over 200k a year: "According to Transparent California, a salary database of public employees, Yuen has worked for SJPD since at least 2014 and made about $153,000 in regular pay and overtime in 2019 as part of a total $226,000 compensation package." You can also look at Seattle police salaries (https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/databases/article25861027.html); https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/databases/article2586102... it is normal for police to be getting paid 150k+.
- nappy-doo 6y ago
  I was between jobs this time last year, and started rooting around in my local town's salary publications. In the top 50 salaries for my mid-size MA town, about 50% were police (starting at places 2, 3, 4 and then like 8?), with the average salary (including overtime) at about 175k$. There are also 54 people listed as working as "[XXX] police [XXX]", in a town of 41k. For the record, there is an average of one violent crime a day in my town, and stats like 7 projected rapes in 2020 (0 murders). Whether or not that's all justified, I leave as an exercise to the reader.
reaperducer 6y ago
the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage starting out Is it? I hear ads on the radio for Portland Police in my state (which is not Oregon) and it says pay starts at $74,000/year plus a long list of benefits. Is $35/hour the minimum page in Portland now?
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  As a comparison, the Portland, Oregon police bureau starts officers at 66,934 as an entry wage, and it starts at 80K if you are moving over from some other law enforcement agency.
geodel 6y ago
You make good point. From what I read here apart from medical professional or software developers, forget increment, no one really deserves the pay they are getting now.

rconti 6y ago

I think it's worth discussing as I also had slight misgivings about the perceived disparity you mention. I'm not sure that it's relevant, as the pay scale for LPNs/CNs/CNAs are all over the place... and overtime and retirement benefits can make law enforcement extremely lucrative careers. But I just don't have the numbers for it either way.

makoz 6y ago

Are we factoring in the vastly different requirements for each profession starting out? Seems disingenuous to compare say Doctors who go through medical school vs people who only need a high school degree and however long training takes.

Terretta 6y ago

Is "the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage" overstating things a little? Looks like NYC cops make more than NYC nurses, or it's close. From the source, starting $42K, $85K after 5 years, plus benefits: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-benefits.page https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-be... New York nursing, average pay (> 5 years) $83K, $89K in NYC. When you factor in years of medical school for the degree, medical malpractice insurance, and lack of benefits versus police pension, police are generally netting more.

pmorici 6y ago
In Baltimore, the minimum wage is $15 an hour (31k / yr) and the starting salary for a police trainee is advertised to be around 35k. The point isn't whether they get paid the wrong amount for the qualifications required the point is about the calculus about how much you are willing to put up with when you are getting paid $70k vs $300k. If I'm getting paid $300k and once or twice in my 40 year career I have to deal with a pandemic my thought process about how I feel about that is different than if I'm making 70k. All I'm saying is comparing doctors to cops doesn't seem particularly useful.
- Terretta 6y ago
  This seems confused about who are on the front lines. It's mostly not the $300K year MDs just like it's mostly not the $300K police captains. That's "the 1%" (figuratively). The front lines for riots are the $35K - $85K cops and the front lines for COVID are the $35K - $85K year nurses.

maxfan8 6y ago

Sure, medical professionals get paid a lot. They also have a lot of tuitions/student loans to pay. Training and educating medical professionals is not a cheap task.

baumandm 6y ago

I believe there was a thread here previously on this topic. It varies across jurisdictions but most police officers are paid better than other salaried workers[1], which is significantly above the minimum wage[2]. [1] https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/06/in-blue-but-not-blue-collar https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/06/in-blue-but-no... [2] The effective nationwide minimum wage, (the wage that the average minimum wage worker earns), is $11.80 as of May 2019. So 40 hr/week * 52 weeks = $24,544 annually. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_Sta...)

syshum 6y ago

Where are police officers being paid Minimum Wage? In my city a 1st year officer makes about 15-20% more than the median HOUSEHOLD income for the city. (most Households are 2 income at least). That is base income not factoring in Shift Premiums, Overtime, and various other income they earn So I would love to know what city you are referring to where cops are being paid the minimum wage

pmorici 6y ago
No where, I said 'slightly above starting out'. For example in Baltimore where they have a $15 minimum wage (~31k /yr) the advertised starting salary for a police officer is something like $35-38k while they are in training which as far as I can tell lasts for 6-12 months that gets bumped up to ~$53k and after several years you can take some kind of test to become a supervisor where you make up to low six figures. A college degree is helpful but not strictly required. A doctor on the other hand starts out making 70k in their residency after 4 years of undergrad and 4 years of med school. Once their residency is over they can expect to make well into the six figures. Probably in the 300-400k range. COVID is a few months of increased danger that happens perhaps once in a career for which some medical professionals are even getting paid extra for. I don't necessarily think police are under paid but to say you can attract people because of the public service aspect of the job and ignore the vast pay difference seems to ignore the obvious difference.
- syshum 6y ago
  So are you advocating we charge police officers $100-300K for their training as well? They get paid a reasonable salary to be trained in a job that will provide them a nice income for the rest of their life. Having a lower salary while in training is not unheard of in any field, I am not sure why you believe those numbers are unacceptable. Further Baltimore shows why a national $15 min wage is untenable, as all that does is make more jobs "minimum wage jobs" because taking the min wage from $8 to $15 does not magically mean all the jobs that paid $15 now pay $22, that is not how economics work
  - pmorici 6y ago

meowsnow 6y ago

The San Jose cop that caught controversy was found by public records to be getting paid over 200k a year: "According to Transparent California, a salary database of public employees, Yuen has worked for SJPD since at least 2014 and made about $153,000 in regular pay and overtime in 2019 as part of a total $226,000 compensation package." You can also look at Seattle police salaries (https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/databases/article25861027.html); https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/databases/article2586102... it is normal for police to be getting paid 150k+.

nappy-doo 6y ago
I was between jobs this time last year, and started rooting around in my local town's salary publications. In the top 50 salaries for my mid-size MA town, about 50% were police (starting at places 2, 3, 4 and then like 8?), with the average salary (including overtime) at about 175k$. There are also 54 people listed as working as "[XXX] police [XXX]", in a town of 41k. For the record, there is an average of one violent crime a day in my town, and stats like 7 projected rapes in 2020 (0 murders). Whether or not that's all justified, I leave as an exercise to the reader.

reaperducer 6y ago

the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage starting out Is it? I hear ads on the radio for Portland Police in my state (which is not Oregon) and it says pay starts at $74,000/year plus a long list of benefits. Is $35/hour the minimum page in Portland now?

rootusrootus 6y ago
As a comparison, the Portland, Oregon police bureau starts officers at 66,934 as an entry wage, and it starts at 80K if you are moving over from some other law enforcement agency.

geodel 6y ago

You make good point. From what I read here apart from medical professional or software developers, forget increment, no one really deserves the pay they are getting now.