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As usual, overlong and is another apologia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologia for large tech monopolies. These e

As usual, overlong and is another apologia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologia for large tech monopolies. These essays are fueled by throwing some facts and nuance around so that we appear to be a thoughtful person but then roughly sums it up with "isn't it great we have cellphones and facebook?"

recursive 6y ago
> sums it up with "isn't it great we have cellphones and facebook?" Well, isn't it? I mean yes, that's not the only conclusion to be drawn here. But without their ubiquity, this would never have become a story in the first place.
clairity 6y ago
yeah, i've read a few of these analyses, and while they're mildly interesting, they're not nearly as earth-shatteringly insightful and counter-intuitive as many seem to think they are. it's mostly bog-standard strategic analysis you learn during MBA school, but to ben's credit, well laid out, organized, and appropriately cited. this particular post seems to marvel at how big tech provides otherwise-sheltered people a lens on the wider world, and by extension, a (rather tiny) mechanism of change. it claims more significance for this mechanism than, you know, masses of people marching on the streets, because that's the vantage point of the author and it's relative importance to him. edit: i just listened to Funmilola Fagbamila on yesterday's take two [0], and she was incredibly articulate and insightful about the protests and organizing for change: https://www.funmilola.com/ https://www.funmilola.com/ [0] https://www.scpr.org/programs/take-two/2020/06/01/20889/ https://www.scpr.org/programs/take-two/2020/06/01/20889/
- zamfi 6y ago
  > it claims more significance for this mechanism than, you know, masses of people marching on the streets, because that's the vantage point of the author and it's relative importance to him I mean, the masses of people marching on the streets would very likely not be there but for the widespread sharing of the video.
  - clairity 6y ago
    no, see that's exactly the misestimation afforded by insulation. we've had protests and rebellions recently and for millenia without social media influence. it's just not a required feature of masses of people being angry at injustice.
    - zamfi 6y ago
      Sure, and we’ve had race riots in the past too. But when was the last time we had this level of protest in support of a minority group? The million man march? And that required how much organization in comparison? No one is arguing that it’s a required feature for masses of people being angry at injustice. What they’re arguing is that it changes which injustices are visible.
      - clairity 6y ago
        > "But when was the last time we had this level of protest in support of a minority group?" so injustice doesn't matter when it's just minorities, only when some (presumably white) people "support" them? > "What they’re arguing is that it changes which injustices are visible." ...to him. the injustices are painfully apparent to the population affected. look, all things being equal, it's better that he's now startled out of ignorance by a tragic and now-sensationalized video of someone's death, but sorry, that's not the central mechanism of change here.
        zamfi 6y ago
        Wait, I'm not sure why you are taking a combative tone, as I'm pretty sure we agree -- and if we don't, I'd like to see where. Perhaps I was unclear. First: injustice absolutely matters in all cases, not just when it's visible to white people. But, injustice towards minority groups has, for most of American history, been invisible to and/or ignored by majority groups (obviously not to the minority groups experiencing it, thanks, or even to others). To be clear, this is BAD. Second: pervasive cellphones (+ cameras) and social media is changing that, making injustices directed at minority groups visible to majority groups, and harder to ignore by those majority groups. Are you saying that this is not happening, or that it is bad? Or that it's not because of cellphones and social media? What is the central mechanism of change? (Whether this visibility will ultimately help change anything remains to be seen, for sure. And there are also clearly downsides to social media that make other things worse, too.)
- WhatIsDukkha 6y ago
  I think you nailed with your comment, I'm even more critical however. His writing doesn't deliver in a chain of reasoning that you would expect in undergraduate argument papers. Despite their organization and polish the meat of argument is just not there. As "internet/media analyst" he genuinely seems unaffected by the events of the last 8 years. It's disturing that there are people still out there with this bovine of an outlook. 2020 and techbro discovers redlining and racism were a thing for the last... Most of his essays are just the same way but in different topics. edited -- wrong guy same outlook
  - scarface74 6y ago
    He lives in Taiwan. He doesn’t see the first hand accounts by the local news stations like someone in the US. He probably isn’t talking to people who are close to what’s going on. Whether that leaves him more objective or out of touch is an exercise for the reader.
  - satyrnein 6y ago
    Your link is Benedict Evans. The OP is Ben Thompson.
    - WhatIsDukkha 6y ago
      Yeah my bad... triggered on the internet.
  - dmode 6y ago
    I am not sure I follow you. The lead essay is written by Ben Thompson and your article refers Ben Evans. Different folks
- somethoughts 6y ago
  It seems more of a complement to the existing visuals and more story telling oriented approaches being provided via other forms of media and news. The income disparity graphs personally provided more understanding as to why the issue appears to happen in certain locations. If it makes it approachable to undergraduate MBA types who feel more comfortable in seeing spreadsheets and data science analysis and understandable to a wider, different audience that doesn't seem like such a bad thing. That said, I'd be really interested in being pointed to better sources for data science approaches to understanding the issue(s) - in addition to the more narrative based suggestions provided.
  - clairity 6y ago
    for the most part they're not bad analyses, just giving folks without relevant background a measure of calibration on the information therein: decent, but worth reading critically rather than with wholesale acceptance.
- frakkingcylons 6y ago
  > it claims more significance for this mechanism than, you know, masses of people marching on the streets Sure, seeing large marches are great at grabbing attention, but seeing actual video evidence of police brutality is _much_ more persuasive. Now almost everyone has high-def cameras, and the ability to stream live to everyone (so people will see it even if the police take/destroy your phone). I think that makes a big difference, though I'm not arguing that tech alone deserves credit for improving things. Having people in the streets still matters.
  - clairity 6y ago
    > "Sure, seeing large marches are great at grabbing attention, but seeing actual video evidence of police brutality is _much_ more persuasive." again, for you. the people marching didn't need to see the video to be angry and mobilize for change. they were already angry, a long-simmering anger of an even longer and more widely tolerated injustice and oppression. when people protest, we should listen to them, believe them, because protesting is not without its risks and costs. that the video matters so much to you relative to the protesters is exactly the criticsm of perspective leveled here.
    - frakkingcylons 6y ago
      Yes the people marching don't need to see the video, but the unfortunate reality is you DO have to convince everyone else. That's why the attitudes of non-black people towards police brutality are have shifted significantly in the past 10 years [0], at least in my opinion. I'm not saying there should have to be video in order for victims of police violence to be believed, but the larger public won't start believing it otherwise. That's my belief on why the marches we're seeing since Floyd's murder involve more non-black people. [0]: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-lots-of-white-democrats-ended-up-protesting-the-death-of-george-floyd/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-lots-of-white-democ...
alexashka 6y ago
That's what any publication that has to pump out content according to schedule to stay profitable turns into. If insight on demand was achievable, we'd be living in a different world.

recursive 6y ago

> sums it up with "isn't it great we have cellphones and facebook?" Well, isn't it? I mean yes, that's not the only conclusion to be drawn here. But without their ubiquity, this would never have become a story in the first place.

clairity 6y ago

yeah, i've read a few of these analyses, and while they're mildly interesting, they're not nearly as earth-shatteringly insightful and counter-intuitive as many seem to think they are. it's mostly bog-standard strategic analysis you learn during MBA school, but to ben's credit, well laid out, organized, and appropriately cited. this particular post seems to marvel at how big tech provides otherwise-sheltered people a lens on the wider world, and by extension, a (rather tiny) mechanism of change. it claims more significance for this mechanism than, you know, masses of people marching on the streets, because that's the vantage point of the author and it's relative importance to him. edit: i just listened to Funmilola Fagbamila on yesterday's take two [0], and she was incredibly articulate and insightful about the protests and organizing for change: https://www.funmilola.com/ https://www.funmilola.com/ [0] https://www.scpr.org/programs/take-two/2020/06/01/20889/ https://www.scpr.org/programs/take-two/2020/06/01/20889/

zamfi 6y ago
> it claims more significance for this mechanism than, you know, masses of people marching on the streets, because that's the vantage point of the author and it's relative importance to him I mean, the masses of people marching on the streets would very likely not be there but for the widespread sharing of the video.
- clairity 6y ago
  no, see that's exactly the misestimation afforded by insulation. we've had protests and rebellions recently and for millenia without social media influence. it's just not a required feature of masses of people being angry at injustice.
  - zamfi 6y ago
    Sure, and we’ve had race riots in the past too. But when was the last time we had this level of protest in support of a minority group? The million man march? And that required how much organization in comparison? No one is arguing that it’s a required feature for masses of people being angry at injustice. What they’re arguing is that it changes which injustices are visible.
    - clairity 6y ago
      > "But when was the last time we had this level of protest in support of a minority group?" so injustice doesn't matter when it's just minorities, only when some (presumably white) people "support" them? > "What they’re arguing is that it changes which injustices are visible." ...to him. the injustices are painfully apparent to the population affected. look, all things being equal, it's better that he's now startled out of ignorance by a tragic and now-sensationalized video of someone's death, but sorry, that's not the central mechanism of change here.
      - zamfi 6y ago
        Wait, I'm not sure why you are taking a combative tone, as I'm pretty sure we agree -- and if we don't, I'd like to see where. Perhaps I was unclear. First: injustice absolutely matters in all cases, not just when it's visible to white people. But, injustice towards minority groups has, for most of American history, been invisible to and/or ignored by majority groups (obviously not to the minority groups experiencing it, thanks, or even to others). To be clear, this is BAD. Second: pervasive cellphones (+ cameras) and social media is changing that, making injustices directed at minority groups visible to majority groups, and harder to ignore by those majority groups. Are you saying that this is not happening, or that it is bad? Or that it's not because of cellphones and social media? What is the central mechanism of change? (Whether this visibility will ultimately help change anything remains to be seen, for sure. And there are also clearly downsides to social media that make other things worse, too.)
WhatIsDukkha 6y ago
I think you nailed with your comment, I'm even more critical however. His writing doesn't deliver in a chain of reasoning that you would expect in undergraduate argument papers. Despite their organization and polish the meat of argument is just not there. As "internet/media analyst" he genuinely seems unaffected by the events of the last 8 years. It's disturing that there are people still out there with this bovine of an outlook. 2020 and techbro discovers redlining and racism were a thing for the last... Most of his essays are just the same way but in different topics. edited -- wrong guy same outlook
- scarface74 6y ago
  He lives in Taiwan. He doesn’t see the first hand accounts by the local news stations like someone in the US. He probably isn’t talking to people who are close to what’s going on. Whether that leaves him more objective or out of touch is an exercise for the reader.
- satyrnein 6y ago
  Your link is Benedict Evans. The OP is Ben Thompson.
  - WhatIsDukkha 6y ago
    Yeah my bad... triggered on the internet.
- dmode 6y ago
  I am not sure I follow you. The lead essay is written by Ben Thompson and your article refers Ben Evans. Different folks
somethoughts 6y ago
It seems more of a complement to the existing visuals and more story telling oriented approaches being provided via other forms of media and news. The income disparity graphs personally provided more understanding as to why the issue appears to happen in certain locations. If it makes it approachable to undergraduate MBA types who feel more comfortable in seeing spreadsheets and data science analysis and understandable to a wider, different audience that doesn't seem like such a bad thing. That said, I'd be really interested in being pointed to better sources for data science approaches to understanding the issue(s) - in addition to the more narrative based suggestions provided.
- clairity 6y ago
  for the most part they're not bad analyses, just giving folks without relevant background a measure of calibration on the information therein: decent, but worth reading critically rather than with wholesale acceptance.
frakkingcylons 6y ago
> it claims more significance for this mechanism than, you know, masses of people marching on the streets Sure, seeing large marches are great at grabbing attention, but seeing actual video evidence of police brutality is _much_ more persuasive. Now almost everyone has high-def cameras, and the ability to stream live to everyone (so people will see it even if the police take/destroy your phone). I think that makes a big difference, though I'm not arguing that tech alone deserves credit for improving things. Having people in the streets still matters.
- clairity 6y ago
  > "Sure, seeing large marches are great at grabbing attention, but seeing actual video evidence of police brutality is _much_ more persuasive." again, for you. the people marching didn't need to see the video to be angry and mobilize for change. they were already angry, a long-simmering anger of an even longer and more widely tolerated injustice and oppression. when people protest, we should listen to them, believe them, because protesting is not without its risks and costs. that the video matters so much to you relative to the protesters is exactly the criticsm of perspective leveled here.
  - frakkingcylons 6y ago
    Yes the people marching don't need to see the video, but the unfortunate reality is you DO have to convince everyone else. That's why the attitudes of non-black people towards police brutality are have shifted significantly in the past 10 years [0], at least in my opinion. I'm not saying there should have to be video in order for victims of police violence to be believed, but the larger public won't start believing it otherwise. That's my belief on why the marches we're seeing since Floyd's murder involve more non-black people. [0]: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-lots-of-white-democrats-ended-up-protesting-the-death-of-george-floyd/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-lots-of-white-democ...

alexashka 6y ago

That's what any publication that has to pump out content according to schedule to stay profitable turns into. If insight on demand was achievable, we'd be living in a different world.