4 ms·

Bullets are the same way though; Full metal jackets are required for war, while law enforcement use bullets for stopping power. One way the U.S. could reduce

Bullets are the same way though; Full metal jackets are required for war, while law enforcement use bullets for stopping power. One way the U.S. could reduce gun deaths would be to require full metal jacket ammunition; It decreases the likelihood of death for any given hit; (though increases ricochets and likelihood of stray bullets)(also increases price of every bullet sold)

Johnjonjoan 6y ago
You forgot to mention that the hollow points law enforcement use are banned internationally per the Hague convention.
- gregimba 6y ago
  Yes, but US didn't sign the portion of the Hague convention that bans the use of hollow point ammunition and the US military adopted hollow point ammunition with the M-17 and M-18 handguns.
panopticon 6y ago
Hollow points are primarily used by the police for their penetration (or lack thereof)—not their stopping power. As you note in your parenthetical, this would entirely negate that. That being said, there has been a lot of evidence that shows that HP rounds penetrate further than conventional wisdom would expect, and it likely gives LEOs a false sense of security when firing in an apartment complex or into crowds.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Hollow points are primarily used by the police for their penetration (or lack thereof)—not their stopping power I suspect that this is more true of the public justification for their use than the motivation (not saying it's not part of both, though.) Politically, “it reduces risk of accidental injury to bystanders” is probably more palatable, especially to the factions most likely to object to police-preferred gear, etc., than “it makes the injuries to the people we target more grievous”.
philwelch 6y ago
FMJ ammunition has serious issues with overpenetration. It’s also much less expensive than hollowpoints; most gun owners will practice and train with FMJ but use hollowpoints for defensive carry.
jandrewrogers 6y ago
This is a misunderstanding of why different bullets are used in different situations. Law enforcement and other self-defense applications use hollow-point (HP) bullets to minimize penetration for the safety of innocent bystanders. The idea is that the bullet is designed to not fully penetrate the first material object it comes in contact with, though over-penetration can still happen. A full metal jacket (FMJ) bullet will frequently go through multiple walls and bodies until it depletes its energy, which is desirable in military applications; the design of military bullets enhances this. The prohibition on HP bullets from the Hague Convention is a 19th century anachronism based on the capabilities of firearms from that period, modern rifle bullets have significantly different design requirements in any case. Modern high-velocity FMJ cartridges, such as the ubiquitous 5.56mm NATO, can undergo explosive fragmentation which causes much more damage than the low-velocity use cases for HP. FMJ is typically cheaper and feeds more reliably than HP bullets, particularly in dirty firearms, which is a major consideration for the military since the advent of semi-automatic and automatic weapons a century ago.
- smileysteve 6y ago
  Thanks for the detail!
- trhway 6y ago
  >Modern high-velocity FMJ cartridges, such as the ubiquitous 5.56mm NATO, can undergo explosive fragmentation that is how modern military workarounds the ban on such cruel things like HP. The small caliber very fast round (i.e. it is usually should be less than 200-300 yards for M16, AK74) would yaw/tumble upon entering the body, and either fragments as a result or just do a lot of damage by tumbling. Historically, US introduced that trick into mass warfare in Vietnam war with 5.56 M-16 where it was noticed by USSR which in turn produced 5.45 AK-74 which was actively used in Afghanistan. The AK-74 round was called "poison" bullet by the Afghanistan mujahideen because of those horrible quickly gangrening wounds as if the bullet was really poisoned while it was a result from that yawing/tumbling behavior of those small and fast rounds. (Such behavior was somewhat amplified by that first generation bullet design, and since then that bullet seems to have been replaced in service - though not on humanitarian grounds, it just that it did have issues in some situations due to that overly tumbling behavior, and it was fixed in the next gen, and additionally the next gen bullet has much higher, 2X+, armor penetrating capability) The way the world stands right now, i don't see any chances for Hague convention to be updated to include modern unnecessary cruel military innovations.
avgDev 6y ago
But FMJ is more dangerous in an urban environment than hollow points as it will penetrate an individual and could hit a by stander. Hollow points make sense in my opinion as police/citizens should only use lethal force in extreme circumstances. Hollow points can stop people quicker. The problem is that police has not been very good about using lethal force.

Johnjonjoan 6y ago

You forgot to mention that the hollow points law enforcement use are banned internationally per the Hague convention.

gregimba 6y ago
Yes, but US didn't sign the portion of the Hague convention that bans the use of hollow point ammunition and the US military adopted hollow point ammunition with the M-17 and M-18 handguns.

panopticon 6y ago

Hollow points are primarily used by the police for their penetration (or lack thereof)—not their stopping power. As you note in your parenthetical, this would entirely negate that. That being said, there has been a lot of evidence that shows that HP rounds penetrate further than conventional wisdom would expect, and it likely gives LEOs a false sense of security when firing in an apartment complex or into crowds.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> Hollow points are primarily used by the police for their penetration (or lack thereof)—not their stopping power I suspect that this is more true of the public justification for their use than the motivation (not saying it's not part of both, though.) Politically, “it reduces risk of accidental injury to bystanders” is probably more palatable, especially to the factions most likely to object to police-preferred gear, etc., than “it makes the injuries to the people we target more grievous”.

philwelch 6y ago

FMJ ammunition has serious issues with overpenetration. It’s also much less expensive than hollowpoints; most gun owners will practice and train with FMJ but use hollowpoints for defensive carry.

jandrewrogers 6y ago

This is a misunderstanding of why different bullets are used in different situations. Law enforcement and other self-defense applications use hollow-point (HP) bullets to minimize penetration for the safety of innocent bystanders. The idea is that the bullet is designed to not fully penetrate the first material object it comes in contact with, though over-penetration can still happen. A full metal jacket (FMJ) bullet will frequently go through multiple walls and bodies until it depletes its energy, which is desirable in military applications; the design of military bullets enhances this. The prohibition on HP bullets from the Hague Convention is a 19th century anachronism based on the capabilities of firearms from that period, modern rifle bullets have significantly different design requirements in any case. Modern high-velocity FMJ cartridges, such as the ubiquitous 5.56mm NATO, can undergo explosive fragmentation which causes much more damage than the low-velocity use cases for HP. FMJ is typically cheaper and feeds more reliably than HP bullets, particularly in dirty firearms, which is a major consideration for the military since the advent of semi-automatic and automatic weapons a century ago.

smileysteve 6y ago
Thanks for the detail!
trhway 6y ago
>Modern high-velocity FMJ cartridges, such as the ubiquitous 5.56mm NATO, can undergo explosive fragmentation that is how modern military workarounds the ban on such cruel things like HP. The small caliber very fast round (i.e. it is usually should be less than 200-300 yards for M16, AK74) would yaw/tumble upon entering the body, and either fragments as a result or just do a lot of damage by tumbling. Historically, US introduced that trick into mass warfare in Vietnam war with 5.56 M-16 where it was noticed by USSR which in turn produced 5.45 AK-74 which was actively used in Afghanistan. The AK-74 round was called "poison" bullet by the Afghanistan mujahideen because of those horrible quickly gangrening wounds as if the bullet was really poisoned while it was a result from that yawing/tumbling behavior of those small and fast rounds. (Such behavior was somewhat amplified by that first generation bullet design, and since then that bullet seems to have been replaced in service - though not on humanitarian grounds, it just that it did have issues in some situations due to that overly tumbling behavior, and it was fixed in the next gen, and additionally the next gen bullet has much higher, 2X+, armor penetrating capability) The way the world stands right now, i don't see any chances for Hague convention to be updated to include modern unnecessary cruel military innovations.

avgDev 6y ago

But FMJ is more dangerous in an urban environment than hollow points as it will penetrate an individual and could hit a by stander. Hollow points make sense in my opinion as police/citizens should only use lethal force in extreme circumstances. Hollow points can stop people quicker. The problem is that police has not been very good about using lethal force.